Sex, Marriage and Children...Livity(?)

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[moses]

Question 6
YOU ONCE SAID THAT SANNYASINS SHOULD MAKE LOVE TO THEIR FRIENDS' WOMEN. IS THIS STILL VALID?

It is more valid than it ever was. I am against marriage. Marriage is one of the sicknesses which have tortured humanity for centuries. It has not given anything, but it has taken away much.
My idea is, the family should disappear. It is out of date. People should live in communes -- five thousand people living together. The whole village becomes a commune. Nobody is married to anybody, but whomever you love, you live with that person. There is no reason why law should come in between you and your lover. The policeman, the magistrate, the registrar of marriages, the priest and the church... why this whole queue?
Love is enough.
This queue was invented because people became aware: today you may be in love with someone and tomorrow the love disappears. All real things are changing; only unreal things don't change.
If your love is made of plastic, it won't change; but if it is made of roses, it is going to change. And love is a roseflower. In the morning it is so beautiful, it seems that it is immortal; shining in the sun with the dewdrops on it, dancing in the breeze, releasing its fragrance, it seems it is going to remain there forever. But by the evening the petals have fallen down, the rose has disappeared.

Existence is constant change, flux.
The idea of permanency is a product of man's own mind. To make love permanent has been one of the greatest crimes. You cannot do it; you cannot make a roseflower permanent. To make love permanent marriage was invented; to make it permanent laws were invented; to make it permanent, divorce or anything that changes it was condemned. The people who have lived their whole lives together have a certain respectability; nobody knows their inner agony.
I have heard about a couple who were known in the city as the best couple. They had lived for fifty years together, and nobody had ever heard anything against the couple. Their love seemed to be eternal.
Their friends were gathered on their fiftieth marriage anniversary to celebrate it. Everybody was celebrating, but they were surprised because the man was missing. Somebody went out. He was sitting in the garden under a tree, very sad. The friend asked him, "What is the matter? We are all celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of your marriage, and you are sitting here so sad."
He said, "There is a reason. Fifty years ago I went to my attorney to enquire about divorce. He said, `In this country it is not possible, and if you try it you will get at least fifty years in prison.' And I am thinking that if I had not listened to that man, today I would have been free.

Fifty years I have been in prison. That attorney is dead; otherwise I would have shot him. That idiot made me afraid; otherwise, I would be celebrating, dancing, because I would have come out of prison. There seems to be nowhere for me except death."
What happens? People fall in love. They are not pretending; it is true for the moment, and in that intensity of the moment they start promising, "I will love you forever"; and if you are born somewhere in India or in the Eastern part of the world, people even promise, "I will love you for many, many lives to come." The intensity of love of that moment makes them promise, not knowing what is going to come tomorrow.
A man of understanding never promises, because what can be said about the next moment? -- I may be dead.
And once they get married... Nobody is made for anybody, remember. And even if somebody was made for you, it would be so difficult to find him or her among five billion people on the earth that for your whole life you would go on searching! By the time you had found them, life would have slipped out of your hands.
I have heard of a woman who said that she remained unmarried because she wanted a perfect husband. And she searched and searched...
The friend she was relating it to asked her, "Did you not find a single perfect man?"
She said, "I found one, but he was looking for a perfect woman."

Meeting on the beach, meeting in a disco, dancing, is one thing. Falling in love is very easy, but remaining twenty-four hours a day with the man or the woman is a totally different affair. Then you come to know the reality. What you had fallen in love with was a mask. You were pretending to be your best; she was pretending to be her best -- but you cannot go on pretending twenty-four hours, year after year. Sooner or later you start seeing the reality of the person and both become disillusioned. At that point marriage prevents them from separating, religion prevents them from separating, the government prevents them from separating. Originally the problem was the children: if they separate what will happen to the children? Their duty towards their children prevents them from separating.
My simple idea is that the family should disappear; people should live in communes. There should be no marriage; hence there will be no possibility of any divorce. People should love and be together as long as they feel love is still alive. The moment they see love declining, it is time to depart -- and depart with friendship, depart with gratitude for all those moments that you have lived in the past; depart as friends.

Itinue

[moses]

As far as children are concerned, the commune should take care of the children. Everybody who is part of the commune should contribute to the commune, whether they have children or not.

All children are the commune's.
This will give the children also a richness of experience: so many uncles, so many aunts. They will not get what psychologists call fixation: father fixation, mother fixation. Every boy gets a mother fixation because he comes to know only one woman and he becomes fixated with that idea of the woman. And his whole life, unconsciously, he is searching for the same woman.
He is not going to find her. He wanted to make love to his mother; she wanted to make love to her father. But that was not possible, and now they are searching for their fathers and their mothers. You cannot find them; existence does not produce similar people, it always produces unique people.
So the man is looking in his wife for his mother, and he does not find her; the woman is looking for her father and she does not find him -- and both are disappointed. Psychologists say, if we can give the child a richer experience of many people, he will not have a fixation. He will have some idea of what a woman is, but the idea will be vague and it will be possible for him to adjust that idea to any woman he likes, or to any man the woman likes. She has known so many uncles, who were all loving. And remember, uncles are more loving than fathers, aunts are more loving than mothers -- because they don't have to suffer your trouble and your nuisance.
In the TALMUD God says to the people, "I am not your uncle, I am not a nice person; I am a very jealous God."

What is important is that he makes the statement, "I am not your uncle; I am your father."
If the commune takes the responsibility for the children, no burden of the children will be on the people. You can meet them -- they can come to meet you. They will only see your beauty, your love. They will not see the mother nagging the father; they will not see the father beating the mother; they will not see the mother throwing things around, breaking plates... throwing pillows at each other.
The child will not see all these ugly scenes, and he will not have any idea that these things have to be done. In his own life he will not repeat it because he has no conception of it.
[bgcolor=Pink]If there is no marriage, jealousy will disappear automatically -- which is almost a cancer of the soul. Every man is jealous, every woman is jealous, and jealousy is pure poison; it destroys your love. You become each other's jailers. What we have done up to now has not been a blessing to humanity. Things have to be changed from the very roots. [/bgcolor]

Source: Socrates Poisoned Again After 25 Centuries
          Chapter 3: The Art Of Not Planning Life
          Osho Talks, Feb 1986

How do I and I all apply to the Above Livity?

[EmpressCarla]

Blessings

People should live in communes -- five thousand people living together. The whole village becomes a commune. Nobody is married to anybody, but whomever you love, you live with that person.

It seems the writer merely wants to reject one social construct for another, one more to his own liking.

I disagree with pretty much everything written. The union of two souls should never be regulated. Not by the government, and not by the writer of this article. In fact, I would say the author takes many viewpoints to an extreme, but there is little factual evidence to back up his claims.

He wanted to make love to his mother; she wanted to make love to her father.

I certainly never wanted to make love to my own father, and I would venture to say the author's statement is untrue of MOST people. Not every man has an Oedipal (sp?) complex.

Ultimately, I think what the author is describing is at the very least a poor representation of what Love is. If a one can simply walk away from another because the initial infatuation is gone, then it was never about Love, only physical attraction. Love is much deeper. Love is not simply emotion or a feeling found from within the 5 senses. Love is a Spiritual connection. Love is its own life force, because Love will cause ones to act on the behalf of another even when it could be to their own detriment.

For example:
* Christ sacrificing his own life, own personal desires for that of mankind.
* A mother, father, sibling, aunt or friend stepping in front of danger to protect a child.
* A person caring for an elderly or infirmed parent...or spouse (Dana Reeve comes to mind).

Love creates a bond that goes beyond. The author is not describing Love. The author is describing only lust, only physical attraction. When that fades, one should be allowed to leave the union. If that is his opinion, so be it. But he should not cast his opinions under the guise of speaking on Love.

Be blessed

[Kama_Sutra]

Sound like your qouting from OSHO, Moses.

He says some things that make sense.  But as a fallible human being, not everything he says is spot on.

Basically what he did was take what Indians thought was "cool" from the West and what Westerners though was "cool" in India and combined the two.  Nothing he says is original.  It's all be hashed and re-hashed before.  

Osho's communes are no example of perfect livity, that is for sure.  There's alot of dysfunction in such groups.  

In traditional (ancient) Indian culture a sannyasi is someone who has lived a full, long and happy family life but in his/her old age, goes off to a private spot to do meditation and devote 24/7 to internal development, self-realisation.  He/she does not take to the sanyas lifestyle out of frustration with family life or because of some hippie mentality searching out free and irresponsible sex.  

Traditional sanyas means no sex.  It's a stage that comes in one's old age, after one has already gone through a successful family life and one's sex desire is no longer strong.

[moses]

Sure, thats Osho...

Man he has a logic and manner of representing his arguments like u never be able to break. It is a function of consciousness factor, thesis from anti thesis... Remember he had a carrier as a journalist(briefly) sometimes in his life and in mostly part, he had a PhD in Philosophy; and was Conversant with many religions of the East and West... Above all, he was enlightened one... Something that needth not being debated but rather realised... And that is what makes him useful, for consciousness factor is the factor of practical illumination.

Yes what he was doing is synthesising what which he finds available with the vision he had from the inside; and sometimes resulting from his transdence of spacial linearity of time. And when he vision something of higher idealism; many people unaware of such possibilities thinks of it as utopia or wishful thinking. Its not really... It is his inner observation of futuristic reality or concurrent phenomena in a distant place. Like Tracy Chapman's song TELLIN' STORIES; She sings something hidden, yet overs everything, and u (ego self ) is jus a scarry moster in the shade of the grand Scheme of life... So it is to life we live. Do not let the humanistics ideals of people of today to judge the obscured facets of life. Lets feel/detect the quality of how it should be in another possible context, and how can it be systhesised even in this hour...

Yes to what u say about Osho commune today and even before... The real cause of what makes it to be the way it is, is the lack of proper consciousness among the ones who go to it. And so u kinda said it like this: ... some hippie mentality searching out free and irresponsible sex.  

Sex is never hindrace to spiritual evolution, the problem is intelligence... So mans right! Traditions dont apply to the facts!!!... For the fundamental thing is CONSCIOUS AWARENESS....

It hard to gets down (overstand) with Osho if u do not meditate (If u are a man), Or live to Devote urself to the Ultimate Truth as a significant quality of the one with enlightment(If u r a woman).

Self realisation is the function of conscious awareness and do not necessarily adheres to one or two displines of life. Each One have to try open up his inner and outer senses to the full everytime... And one practical approach it to BE WATCHFUL of everything u do constantly, without trying judge ur action or out actions, but rather WITNESS... So VIPPASANA is a similar derivation of watchfulness; INTROSPECTION is crucial for killing misconceptions whenever needed... Now dont tell me this need to be done when u r old! All u need to understand is that; times had changed; so the method for spiritual development needs to be reapproached! Now, how do u sift the wheat from the Chaff? Then thats where the reality of Intelligence and knowing/comprehending first things first, applies...

Bless Up

[moses]

Empress Carla, sistren, its well and good that u have raised some opinions upon the matter above. In fact, it was a spontenous morning talk by osho compiled into a collection of a book with a title as indicated...

Communal life is not a new thing in this Earth, it has been in existence. Osho had a living observation of such mode of life before he even systhesised his own with his friends who went to live with him. In Africa, there has been a typical example of some of what he had bn highlightened above within some tribes. And its typical name is UJIMA... Thats why it was easier for some countries like the one im in, to adopt a Socialist form of political goverment(Which failed). The idea of it was because Socialism was close to the modular organisation of many indigenous tribes constituting the country. And what brings practical likeness is the Common Sharing of the Natural Resources (Land, Water,Forests etc owned by the whole society) and Relationships Among the Elders, the Youths and Children... I dont recall some deliberate Sexual Mingling practices in specific scenarios; But there have been to some tribes... Especially the Maasai for example; a man could sleep with another man's wife occasionly, marking his doing by anchoring the Spear by the Door of his rival. Now as the days had changed, much of the culture is lost... But exploring their former values; much can be obsereved from positive and negative perspectives. I remember it was somewhere in India or Bengali where Osho actually sighted a group of indigenous people with open relationship approach to sex, and whose elder could well explain it to Osho that it has an advantage of destroying Jealosy in their society! Well, they could even tell why... And that is what which is important. We shouldnt jus dismiss a certain mode of life like its savagery. Some people may be wiser in their consent than what we would preconceively think we r moore civilized to them.

And back to Love thing; well... There are a couple of things I as a man dont 'over' ur implications over it; kinda like

* Christ sacrificing his own life, own personal desires for that of mankind.  
* A mother, father, sibling, aunt or friend stepping in front of danger to protect a child.  
* A person caring for an elderly or infirmed parent...or spouse (Dana Reeve comes to mind).

Those are actions or reflexes that arise out of spontemous recognition of Service, Danger and Comfort... And somehow its shades some contrast over the large concern over a kind of survival (?)

If One Should say like this: Love is A Total Acceptance and Overstanding Of Everything As Found at Its Place, like thats where it should be as it qualify, whether positive or negative

And that should apply btn U and a person, u and a thing, u and a place etc

Note: The Acceptance is a function of the Heart; and Overstanding is of Mind. The Rest Is a non Judgemental approach to life, yet full of recognition and possible discernment.

Does this sound true least to the I in I?

[EmpressCarla]

Blessings

Idren I have no issues or opinions on "communal life". If it works for a group, good for them. My issue is that Osho is talking about Love, but he has not scratched the surface. If all he can come up with (and I am going by what you have posted here, his deeper reflections notwithstanding) is how it relates to the physical, then in my opinion it is not only basic, but debased.

And back to Love thing; well... There are a couple of things I as a man dont 'over' ur implications over it; kinda like

* Christ sacrificing his own life, own personal desires for that of mankind.  
* A mother, father, sibling, aunt or friend stepping in front of danger to protect a child.  
* A person caring for an elderly or infirmed parent...or spouse (Dana Reeve comes to mind).

Those are actions or reflexes that arise out of spontemous recognition of Service, Danger and Comfort... And somehow its shades some contrast over the large concern over a kind of survival (?)

I submit to you that such actions as the examples I presented are not mere "recognitions of service". For if that were the case, there would never be a case where elderly and infirmed are mistreated or ignored, there would never be a need for a Christ, and when a child is in danger ALL people would jump into harm's way. In fact, people would go to great lengths to ensure a child is NEVER harmed. There would never be drive-by shootings where a child gets shot. There would never be children made to take up arms and go to war. There would never be child abuse or child labor abuse. So it is deeper than just some sort of moral duty upon which people take up. It is rooted in Love when one puts another's life over there own. The act may be instinctive and may not have been prompted by a series of logic within one's head. But without Love, one would simply fail to act. That is why someone who cannot swim may drown trying to save another. I have never heard of such a phenomenom where two strangers are concerned. It is when one Loves another and is intimately familiar with another that one would put themself in harm's way without thinking.

If One Should say like this: Love is A Total Acceptance and Overstanding Of Everything As Found at Its Place, like thats where it should be as it qualify, whether positive or negative

And that should apply btn U and a person, u and a thing, u and a place etc

Note: The Acceptance is a function of the Heart; and Overstanding is of Mind. The Rest Is a non Judgemental approach to life, yet full of recognition and possible discernment.

Does this sound true least to the I in I?

No.

Be blessed.

[moses]

Alright... Seen

There are some things that can be debated. Some cant certainly...

Someone may be buying some compassion by showing some concern[smiley=smiley.gif]

I as a man will wait...

Love

[Kama_Sutra]

Osho was born and raised in a sexually conservative culture.  He couldn't get any booty at that time growing up in India so as an adult he devised a ways and means by which he could get lots of international booty.  Hence all this talk from him.  

Everyone in India knows this.

[moses]

 

"Osho was born and raised in a sexually conservative culture.  He couldn't get any booty at that time growing up in India so as an adult he devised a ways and means by which he could get lots of international booty.  Hence all this talk from him.  

Everyone in India knows this."

Is That all u can say bout him?

Hmmmm... Many times Iman sight this happening in the lives of the visionaries. His contemporary denying him. Strangers recognises him... Something inside miss amongst the society in which the prophets come. That Sad but is Ok... It is a product of reluctancy to change of course. Being Conservative of old ways... Of Ancenstors' Legacy.

What is the issue with 'International Booties'? Hahaha...

U r userid is Karmasutra... Among the book I have loved, Vatsyayana's Karmasutra(The Aphorism on Love), is one of my classics. And I love the Art Of Making Love. Vatsyayana's description of the practice of making love touches various perspective of the society as they were popular in his days. It is even said he was a devotee of certain hindu deity, when he composed those verses that contributed to the Karmasutra. Now, if u really understand the theme of the book; What Osho practiced is no surprise.

Afterall Osho's sexual practice has slightly different inclination from  the prevailant overstanding of his contemporary background population. I can say that with I authority because I as a self, live up the same. I sexual orientation is of deeper connection between me and the other at a time.  And since this is of significancy; I often time find it harder to find a mate of profound need to connect. And my realisation is; many female partners within my cultural circle do not approach sex as something that can be beyond mundane entanglements. If true i caould be surrounded by the female companions of deeper values to life... Same all thing will happen to I as it did to Osho... For man he had an advantage of circle of friends who were really feeling him.

Sex my dear friend, is not something u engage in as a kind of food. Sex has its own mysterious that it can bestow the blessing of deeper satisfaction between the two, only if they can be longing for deeper union and profound ecstasy. The only obstacle is the surrounding constrictions and taboos that sometime exist out of unnecessary ignorance.

And Sexual energy is among the most misused latent power. But only the true players, can harness the possibility of its innate quality. And the players that I address are people with the quest for higher union; and not jus a lustful engagements.

So "Everyone in India knows this." applies to those who think they know and yet in truth, they dont know... The number doesnt count but their state of consciouness reveals the obvious... The essential thing is what was going on in his practice, and not judge his outer personality thinking it tells everything about him. The fruit of consciouness is growing love and wisdom; never adherence to dogmatic recipes of the culture and traditions.

So dear sistren, be in touch with ur heart more that the head

Love ya Lotus Q Karmasutra

And All....

[moses]

Turgenev has written a small story.... In a certain town there was a very intelligent man, and quite influential too. And in the same town there lived an utter fool, an idiot. One day the idiot approached the intelligent man and asked to be shown some way of becoming intelligent. The intelligent man asked the idiot whether he wanted to be intelligent or appear to be intelligent, because to become intelligent was a long process, but to look intelligent was easy. The idiot replied that he wanted to be shown the easier way -- that if it was enough if he looked intelligent, he did not want to bother about becoming intelligent.
The intelligent man commented that in becoming intelligent there was a possibility to make a mistake, but in looking intelligent there could be no mistake. The idiot then became impatient and requested that the trick be revealed without any delay. The intelligent man whispered something in his ear -- and from that day on the idiot gradually began to become known as intelligent throughout the town.
The people of the town began to gossip; How had this fool suddenly become intelligent? What had the intelligent man told him?
He had simply told to the fool to immediately negate every statement he heard. If anyone said, "There is something to idol worship," the idiot was immediately to reply that there wasn't. The idiot asked the intelligent man, "Should I say such things even when I don't know anything about the subject?"
The intelligent man said, "You don't have to bother about knowing anything at all -- just negate whatever is said.

If somebody tells you that the works of Kalidas are wonderful, just say it is all rubbish! Tell them to prove that they are! If anyone says that Beethoven's music is heavenly, say that even in hell such music is played! And ask the person to prove what heavenly music is like. Just deny everything, and if anyone opposes you, challenge them to prove their claim."
Within two weeks the idiot became famous throughout the town for his intelligence. People started saying that he was very deep and difficult to judge or understand. If someone said that Shakespeare's poetry is beautiful, he would reply that it was simply rubbish -- any school child could write such poems. Then the person would feel shaky because it was difficult to prove what he was saying.
This century is, in a way, a century of many types of foolishnesses. And the foundation of our foolishness is negation. For a whole century we have been denying one thing after another. When others are not able to prove something, they also join in the negating. But remember the more negative a life is, the more insignificant it becomes.
No truth can be known without being positive.
The more negative a life is, although it will seem more intelligent outwardly, inwardly it will be more stupid. The more negative a life is, the less will it be possible for truth, joy and beauty to penetrate it, because all elevating experiences happen only to a positive mind.

All experiences of value can be had only by a positive mind.
Whenever someone says "no," something within his mind closes. Have you ever thought about the effect of words? If you close yourself in your room and loudly say "no," you will find that your whole heart contracts and becomes closed. If you loudly say "yes," you will find that your heart opens its wings and flies into the sky. Words are not just born: the uttering of them creates some parallel event. In saying "no," something contracts within you, and in saying "yes," something opens within you.

- Osho Discourse
 The Hidden Mysteries
 Chapter 4: The Transformative Power of Idol Worship, Mantras, Music and Dance
 Page 37-39
 16 June 1971 pm in Woodlands, Bombay, India

JAH Fiyah come down and purify the Blaze...

[Kama_Sutra]

Moses, as a young Indian man Osho's marriage was arranged by his family to an Indian woman.  My question is; was Osho's wife in agreement with him regarding his ideas on sexuality in his later years?  Did she have sex with multiple international partners as did her husband?  Or, like a typical Indian man, did Osho expect his wife to remain a "pati-vrat" (I'll let you look that word up)?

I have read in one of his works that he supported the traditional Indian ideal that a woman should remain completely celibate after the death of her husband in widowhood and not remarry.  Hmmmmmm.  Seems like a double standard.  One standard for the Indian man, and another standard for the Indian woman.

Anyway, good luck in your search for an ideal partner.  She doesn't exist.  The only ideal partner is the female side of your own soul.  Only you yourself can understand you best and love you most.  Unite the male and female within you and you will be happy.  Do not look for your female self outside of you.  You will die and re-incarnate again and again without ever finding her.  She is inside you.

http://www.nearfar.org/love-is-understanding

[moses]

Yes I,

Osho's ebooks can be found abound from www.oshoworld.com for free!!!
Maybe u should try the book Glimpses Of The Golden Childhood to have clues of his life and encounters. If I do remember it right; he talked about an arranged marriage done for him... He didn't get married. Dont compromise, read the whole of it. I did it iself sometimes back. So I can relate afterward to track with u.

"I have read in one of his works that he supported the traditional Indian ideal that a woman should remain completely celibate after the death of her husband in widowhood and not remarry.  Hmmmmmm.  Seems like a double standard.  One standard for the Indian man, and another standard for the Indian woman. "



Osho usually talks about something is a closed arguments which are conterbalanced. SO I assume he explained it through; if that is not so... Pse reread it or bring it to the post so I an I can reflect upon it...

"Anyway, good luck in your search for an ideal partner.  She doesn't exist.  The only ideal partner is the female side of your own soul.  Only you yourself can understand you best and love you most.  Unite the male and female within you and you will be happy.  Do not look for your female self outside of you.  You will die and re-incarnate again and again without ever finding her.  She is inside you. "

Thank u for the word of advice; however, im not searching for one...It is jus i cannot find one who is in quest for the 'Higher' love. For that by itself is a miracle!

Uniting the male and female in I is something that I live up... Cant u see a significancy of hearty and overstanding springing from I expressions? It is an  integration of functional part of the Left half of the Brain and Right Half of Brain... And that can be cultivated by Meditation and Yoga. The Analytical Half Of the Brain is Male; and its how u introvert. The Imaginative/Creative part of the Brain is Feminine and hence Extroverted... When sythesis occurs, it means there is a dynamic harmony between the two. So a man acquires a significant degree of self expression with the taste of art and reflection of beauty combined in logics and refinement.

Yes, when u desire someone according to ur conceptual sense; that means ur not perfect urself... And u will attract something which will reflect ur complimentary imperfection so that u can relive ur karma. However, there is another law of attraction that bring to u something of inner affinity; and that noone can tell. But can be gifted; and that soul comes to one's in a perfectly timing... And fulfil its karma concurrently with ur soul plan... So there are three types of soul relationships in conjuction to healing and karma. There is true Soulmate, Retribution Soulmate and a Twinflamme. The first one is positive and always work out karma in a positive way. The second is mixed of up and down, but mostly it can be detrimental if one is not conscious of the subconscious ties of past lives. The third one is mysterious... And the possibility of it is only when one is about to complete his karmic cycle and ascend to the Higher Consciousness Planes. Only ur Higherself can facilitate ur meeting with the significant other and not ur mortal ego... And its rare occurence.

Then again, here we go...

JAH Guide

[Kama_Sutra]

Moses, as far as the last relationship, Twinflame, this is not neccessarily a male/female union.  I think of it as the guru-sisya relationship.  Corny people who have over-idealistic concepts of romance think that their "ultimate soulmate" will be an opposite gendered person wherein there will be a sexual relationship of some type.  Why?  Because we are materially conditioned to want such a fantasy.  

There is no need of that for people who have risen above.

As Osho says, "AWAKE!"

[moses]

Yes I,

"as far as the last relationship, Twinflame, this is not neccessarily a male/female union."

Never stop investigating... That is something I as a man is doing... Iman's perceiption of Twinflamme phenomena is unique as Dr Bruce Goldberg sights...

And very good link the I has provided! Me loved that

"...Why?  Because we are materially conditioned to want such a fantasy."  

I as a man live in no fantasy land; All people who want to stay conscious do the same. So meditation is the antidote to living unconscious and dreamful...

Nevertheless, based on a work of Dr Bruce Goldberg, the clinical hyponotherapist who had worked with many parasychological cases and metaphysics; that classification has validity and u can make a follow up and learn. Find the Book SOUL HEALING to find out more. And it is the book that I highly recommend! A Classic work of all times based on the practical senses.

Dr Bruce's website is http://www.drbrucegoldberg.com ... And he is personly very cooperative when u contact his office...

JAH Love