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Rasta Forum Archives => Rasta Forum Archives 2005 => Topic started by: EmpressCarla on November 16, 2005, 03:01:14 AM

Title: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: EmpressCarla on November 16, 2005, 03:01:14 AM
Stanley "Tookie" Williams (born December 29, 1953) was the founder, along with Raymond Washington, of the Crips, a Los Angeles, California youth protection organization that grew, after Williams' incarceration and Washington's murder, into one of the most widely-known and notorious street gangs.

In 1981 the state of California convicted Williams of murdering Albert Owen, Thsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang, and Yee Chen Lin during two seperate robberies and sentenced him to death. Owen had been taken into the backroom of the convenience store he worked and shot execution style in the back of the head. The Yangs and their daughter were all killed by close range shotgun blasts. Paid police informants facing murder, rape, robbery and mutilation charges of their own testified that Williams bragged about the Owen murder. "I shot some white guy and got $63 off him," the informants quoted him as saying. These informants were later given lesser sentences for their crimes or allowed to go free in exchange for their testimony against Williams. The testimony of a ballistics expert supported Williams' guilt for one of the murder sites, however, that ballistics testimony is now under investigation for being unreliable or "junk science at best." There was no physical evidence connecting Williams to the Owen's murder site. Motion for Post Judgment Discovery.

He is currently waiting on death row in San Quentin State Prison the outcome of his request for clemency. Even the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals suggested Williams should be considered for clemency at the end of their September 10, 2002, ruling against him: “We are aware of Williams’ 2001 Nobel Peace Prize nomination for his laudable efforts opposing gang violence from his prison cell, notably his line of children’s books, subtitled ‘Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence,’ and his creation of the Internet Project for Street Peace. Although Williams’ good works and accomplishments since incarceration may make him a worthy candidate for the exercise of gubernatorial discretion, they are not matters that we in the federal judiciary are at liberty to take into consideration.” (See the last page of http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/BD82194097E1066888256C3000546E6D/$file/9999018.pdf?openelement.)

His execution date has been set for December 13, 2005, pending a clemency decision by California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Since his conviction, Williams has denounced his life and his role as a gang leader, and writes from prison about the harmful effects of gang life. It should be noted, however, that Williams has continued to deny his guilt in the four murders he was convicted of.

Williams has written nine children's books and an autobiography that have been popular around the world for their anti-violence message, and helped to broker a truce between the Bloods and the Crips. In 2004, a television movie about him, "Redemption: The Stan Tookie Williams Story", was released. Jamie Foxx starred as Williams.

Williams has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize every year since 2001. The first year he was nominated by a member of the Swiss Parliament; four additional times he has been nominated by Philosophy and Religion Professor Phil Gasper and other professors from throughout the nation and Europe. He has also been nominated several times by William Keach, Brown University Professor of English Literature, for the Nobel Prize in Literature.

--------------------------------------------------

The U.S. Supreme Court, on October 11, 2005, ruled against Tookie on his final appeal and set his execution date for December 13. Thus they disregarded 9 of the 24 Ninth Circuit Court judges' assertion that the District Attorney at Tookie's trial employed "reprehensible and unconstitutional" racist tactics, using animal-in-a-jungle metaphors to refer to Tookie and to the South Central environment in which he lived. This landmark ruling means that minorities can now legally be rejected from juries based on race. This is now the law of the land.

http://www.tookie.com

Be blessed
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on November 16, 2005, 04:50:26 PM
Greetings and peace.

What a sad story. I saw the movie, it was quite good. On one hand I feel bad for Mr. Williams but on the other hand, his choices led him to where he now sits. I do not believe in the death penalty, but I'm not sure if he should be released either.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Wahine on November 18, 2005, 06:17:38 AM
I to have heard his story and seen the movie about his life. I do not condone in any way what he did in his past, but i also congrtulate him on turning his life around and trying to make a difference. Sadly he is just another person (in)(a)ffected by babylon.
We can only hope that his message will reach those that are in need of it. I guess if they do put him to death he will become even more famous and there are people out there who will feel the need to avenge his death which will be a down side.
I believe he has much potential as an educater, but as M-Dub said that doesn't mean he deserves to get out of jail.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on November 18, 2005, 06:11:06 PM
thanks De Novo, i bookmarked tha site and signed the petition. i encourage those who "question" babylon to actually check out tha 'tookie site' !!


                   respect, paco



ps, SOS--- 'At his trial, Stan was found guilty by an all-white jury after the prosecutor removed all prospective Black jurors from the jury pool'

http://socialistworker.org/2005-2/566/566_16_Tookie.shtml
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: EmpressCarla on November 29, 2005, 07:34:37 PM
Blessings

Just some more info:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10252436/

This is an interview Mr. Williams did with Rita Cosby.

Be blessed.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Inf3ct on November 30, 2005, 01:57:21 AM
Yea it is pretty sad....they were interviewing him on T.V. last night......I do not agree with what he did before this, but I personally think he is innocent.....but thats just me. [smiley=cry.gif]
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 01, 2005, 03:28:00 AM
A conversation with Stanley Tookie Williams with Amy Goodman.

imo this man has had a total transformation, please give it a listen-- inspiring!


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/30/153247
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 08, 2005, 04:20:50 AM
Please, if you believe this man is innocent like i believe he is-- contact governor arnold schwarzenegger and ask for the execution of stan williams be stopped: http://www.tookie.com/


and a good article, i think,written by the rcp people: http://rwor.org/a/026/stanleytookiewilliams.htm
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 11, 2005, 05:38:49 AM
interesting comments on Tookie Williams


Murder is against the law right? Well Dick Cheney and George Bush and their band of neo-cons have murdered tens of thousands of people recently but they are not in jail. Why are they not in jail? We know that they murdered tens of thousands of people under false pretenses and as the result of known lies. We know this. How are they any different that Tookie Williams? They are much worse. We know that numerous business associates and political cronies of Bush and Cheney have been indicted for massive theft and fraud. How is this behavior any different than that of any gang members; they didn’t use a shot-gun? Okay.




http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Wahine on December 12, 2005, 04:30:17 AM
The time grows even closer and still no decision made on Tookie's fate. I hope they will grant him clemency but who knows. I guess we will find out in the next couple of days.
As for people in power? Well we all know powerful positions almost always grant you immunity. There is no difference. It's just that they are making the bullets and getting others to fire them.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: EmpressCarla on December 13, 2005, 01:42:50 AM
Blessings

Well, it appears he will indeed need Jah's mercy. Clemency was not granted.  [smiley=cry.gif]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10355657/

Be blessed.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Wahine on December 13, 2005, 04:35:55 AM
That is sad to hear. I will be sure to watch the news at 6:00pm. It is currently 5:30pm here and it is Tuesday. The paper said today that he would be executed at 8:00pm Today (New Zealand time).
I find it difficult to believe that after all this time they have decided to take his life. Surely even if he was guilty of these crimes they say, he has certainly redeemed himself over the years of waiting on death row.
I think that would be punishment enough for most people. Imagine being on death row and not knowing whether you would live or die. Why not let this old soul see out his days in prison? Would it be so bad?????
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 13, 2005, 06:05:40 AM
i heard this morning tookies lawyer speaking about developments concerning a new witness with new info concerning tookies innocence. so his conviction is in doubt, as far as i'm concerned!! it's 9:35 pm here in LA area and tookie still alive, if they kill him then no doubt inna my mind WHO the murderers are!! this is a political killing intha process. this man Mr Williams had a powerful awakening in solitary confinement. a psychic shift happened in Tookies conshussness. the old tookie is already dead they murdering the wrong man. i not giving up hope for this brother to be spared, i staying up till 12:01 am LA time praying and burning sage.

those bible verses are beautiful fiyah. tookie has redeemed hisself, his story is one of redemption; nominated 4 times for the nobel peace prize

there's a space in my heart where tookie will always live!


                 Que Viva Tookie, Paco
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Wahine on December 13, 2005, 08:32:53 AM
It is 9:20pm here on Tuesday and San Francisco is 21 hours behind us so i am guessing that although there has been no official announcement as of yet that Tookie is dead. I have been watching CNN on tv and they have been showing live coverage of what is happening outside the prison.
Surely this has to be wrong! They keep saying that he has never showed remorse for what he did but he has said all along that he was framed! Surely there are other people out there who are far more deserving of execution! They didn't write books or show remorse for anything that they had done in their lives!
This man has had 24 years to think about the life that he led!
I have just been listening to some jewish victim support person saying that he deserves to die because he created the Crips and it is now a world wide crime machine (Kinda what he was implying) so he should be paying the price for all the crimes committed by those who identify them selves as Crips.
WHAT A LOAD OF B***S##T!!!!!!!
Thats like saying that you should tar all people with the same brush!
If one of us on this forum committed a crime and went to jail, would that person then be expected to bear the brunt of any further crimes committed by any other person on this forum since we are essentially a group?

If it is so that Tookie is dead.......

RIP Tookie. Know that your memory will live on and your words will still be read by all. Peace to you.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Wahine on December 13, 2005, 08:59:29 AM
It's now been made official. Time of death 12:35 am. Why did it take them so long?????? That is yet to be answered.
I agree with supporters statements: THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA HAS JUST EXECUTED AN INNOCENT MAN.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Magnus on December 13, 2005, 03:29:26 PM
From what I've read it seems like he made a lot of bad choices in his life but on the other hand he has shown remorse and repented therefore should have been released and not murdered by the state of California. Who are they to say who is to live and who is to die? Isn't that the point with christianity, salvation and forgivness?
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: toshIte on December 13, 2005, 09:35:25 PM
Stanley " Tookie" Williams --  Unto JAH,  bro.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Rasta_Man_410 on December 13, 2005, 09:48:02 PM
This may sound cold-blooded, but I am all for his execution.  He started a gang that has claimed many lives of innocent people in its  days,  and he himself killed people! All these people are saying "let God be the judge!" and "It's not fair!" Well how fair do u think it is for 'Tookie' to take the lives of the four people he killed? and Stanley judged the life and death of the four people he killed, and he isn't God! So I think he deserves it. If not for the murders, then for the Crips.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: toshIte on December 13, 2005, 10:27:40 PM
Why would you go and say a thing like that.
U must live in texas beside g bushs ranch.
By ur reasoning, every soldier in iraq deserves to die (be executed)

u do not know that he killed those 4 pple. the whole thing stinks to hell.

So pls take ur cold blooded self and opinion and find a hole or pit to crawl in.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: BLING_BLAOH on December 13, 2005, 10:59:50 PM
Quote
It's now been made official. Time of death 12:35 am. Why did it take them so long?????? That is yet to be answered.
I agree with supporters statements: THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA HAS JUST EXECUTED AN INNOCENT MAN.


Right on sistren. Right on. Tookie had nuff time fi tink bout him action.  [smiley=angry.gif]Suh weh dem guh kill him fah? Dem waan give a black man a bly. I mean, mi luv Arnold Schwarzenegger and he's one of my all-time favorite actors. But mi feel him nuh mek de right decision fi let Tookie die. It jus goes to show dat de government don't give a damn bout convicts and ex-convicts. All dem waan fi do is punish rather dan rehabilitate.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 13, 2005, 11:16:59 PM
Quote
By ur reasoning, every soldier in iraq deserves to die (be executed)


TRUTH!!

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Inf3ct on December 14, 2005, 12:59:40 AM
Very true indeed.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 14, 2005, 03:07:32 AM

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger coldly and callously refused to grant him
clemency, saying that “the facts do not justify overturning the court decision.” Even though Tookie Williams had changed and became a very outspoken advocate against gang violence and for peace. They showed him no mercy. But it is deeper than this. In a highly political statement, Schwarzenegger also said that Tookie Williams' 1998 book Life In Prison was “dedicated to people like Assata Shakur, Mumia Abu Jamal” and particularly “Black militant George Jackson” which, according to Schwarzenegger, “is a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as legitimate means to address societal problems.”

George Jackson and the other prominent Black figures mentioned in Schwarzenegger’s statement are heroes to a lot of Black people and people of all races and nationalities because of their revolutionary stance. This is proof that this is a politically motivated execution.

                         Joe Veale


this is why they executed Tookie, i believe. he wouldn't apoligize for the crimes coz he said 'why should i apoligize for something i did not do! and he walked straight to the death seat maintaining what he said and i believe him. a brother went in to see tookie alittle before his murder and he reported that tookie was happy and smiled becoz, this man reported, tookie said "my conscious is clear". tookie refused tha last meal also---------- he never played they game----- strong blackman--------thas why they kill him! Jah live


i livicate this intro to those who 'feel it'
http://www.ahsheetc.com/


We're not Free
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Wahine on December 14, 2005, 04:48:17 AM
Rasta_Man_410,
Sorry to dis your idea.......But..........
You sound as bad as that jewish victim support dude on CNN last night!
You can't hold one person accountable for everyone elses actions.

Now that the shock of the situation has eased a little for me i will say that Arnold certainly picked an appropriate role to play in the Terminator. Guess he really is one now.

Tookie continued to maintain his innocence and didn't let them try to make him own up for something he says he did not do. Much strength he must have had going to that table to face his death.
Like i always say, why should you be sorry or show remorse for something that you did not do. That just makes you look guilty which is what they want. He stood by his convictions even though he knew it could cost him his life and he stayed firm on his beliefs right to the end. He could have said at the last minute that he did it and that he was sorry for it and it may have stopped his execution, but he didn't because he stayed strong to the end.

RIP Tookie
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 14, 2005, 04:54:41 AM
killing is unjustified, however when you kill innocent people your death is justified in my book.

sorry am not tagging the company line, but the guy is a muderer so good riddence to his murderous ways.. as the saying goes crime doesnt pay.

i personally do not care how much someone changed there life if they killed or harmed a fellow human being.

the criterion for justice isnt if one claims to have turned their life around, if that is the case every criminal would indeed claim they have done the same as mr. tookie,

when you cry for the murderer tookie, please do not forget the victims of his crimes, and not only those affected by his own bloody hands but those affected by his muderous and wicked gang.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Wahine on December 14, 2005, 10:05:01 AM
To some here in my country rain represents the tears of the God's for a deceased life. It started raining prior to his execution and has continued throughout today.

rasbongo, i see what you are saying, but from what i have heard and read, there are many questions surrounding whether he actually committed these crimes.

Judge not, least ye be judged yourself.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 14, 2005, 05:33:00 PM
Quote
killing is unjustified, however when you kill innocent people your death is justified in my book.


Who is without sin? How can a sinner cast a stone upon another sinner?

Quote
sorry am not tagging the company line, but the guy is a muderer so good riddence to his murderous ways.. as the saying goes crime doesnt pay.


This statement is based in pure ignorance (not saying you, yourself are ignorant). We all have no idea what kind of man Stanley was. That's like me calling you a rapist when I've never even met you.

Quote
i personally do not care how much someone changed there life if they killed or harmed a fellow human being.


Not everyone follows in the footsteps of the Lord. Some choose a grudge, some choose to forgive. Some choose hate, some choose love.

Judge not, least ye be judged yourself.

One

Jah bless



Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 14, 2005, 06:29:56 PM
i am not judging the man, but let us be real here, if no one would stand up and judge any criminal where would our society be?

so all criminals should be let go and we wait for the good lord to pass judgement?

am sorry this isnt a utopian society, there are real criminals out there like tookie williams who are violent and dangerous killers, as long as they are willing to kill innocent lives they should also be killed just like the animals they are for not valuing the lives they took.

dont try to tell ini that am ignorant, how more ignorant can one be for accepting the killing of innocence while willing to look pass the killer.

every criminal, crime has dispute, how often do you see a criminal willing to accept true guilt in the crimes they commit. in the wikkid mines of criminals they are all innocent, tookie is no different.

he didnt commit these crimes yesterday, he did back in 1979, so he had more than ample time to defend and raise appeals, not everyone in the system is out to get killers and murderers, the guy exhausted all legal venues and it was time for him to pay for his ugly and brutal deeds.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 14, 2005, 07:05:57 PM
Quote
i am not judging the man, but let us be real here, if no one would stand up and judge any criminal where would our society be?
 
so all criminals should be let go and we wait for the good lord to pass judgement?


That's not what was being said at all. What was being said was that you are in absolutely no position to judge Stanley Williams. You have no first hand knowledge regarding anything about him.

Quote
as long as they are willing to kill innocent lives they should also be killed just like the animals they are for not valuing the lives they took.


So who's going to kill them? You? What gives you that right? A murderer is better than a murderer?

Quote
dont try to tell ini that am ignorant, how more ignorant can one be for accepting the killing of innocence while willing to look pass the killer.


I didn't, here's what I said "This statement is based in pure ignorance (not saying you, yourself are ignorant)." All I was saying was that the statement was based in pure ignorance, which it was and still is.

Quote
every criminal, crime has dispute, how often do you see a criminal willing to accept true guilt in the crimes they commit. in the wikkid mines of criminals they are all innocent, tookie is no different.


This is false judgement based in ignorance.

I don't say this often, but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You never met Stanley Williams, you were not there when the alleged crimes were committed, etc. You're basing your judgement on nothing. As I said, that's like me saying you're a rapist, and it's true because someone said so. I raspect your opinion, but I cannot raspect judgements based in ignorance.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 14, 2005, 07:28:05 PM
before you call people ignorant you should look at yourself first.

i dont need first hand knowledge of the crime to know that the man was a beast, the society he lived in , the people whose lives he affected and took away is more than enough for me.

is everything you belive or accept you have first hand knowledge of?

the law in los angeles said he was the killer, and a jury of his peers found him guilty and that is enough for me.

people lauding him changing his wikkid ways is absolute nonsence, like i said before makes no difference how much you changed to me atleast , if it involves killing people ini not down for that.

again m-dub, before you get excited and call people names look at your self, i dont have an idea what i am talking about? what makes you think you do... do u have a monoply on the truth?.

simmer down.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Magnus on December 14, 2005, 07:47:50 PM
"You never met Stanley Williams" /M-Dub

And you have? [smiley=wink.gif]
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Rasta_Man_410 on December 14, 2005, 08:06:37 PM
Are you serious?? You guys gotta be kidding me.
By my reasoning, every soldier in Iraq needs to be executed??? YEAH IF THEY WILLINGLY KILLIED INNOCENT PEOPLE! HELL YEAH!!! The thing is, Iraq soldiers DONT KILL PEACEFUL CIVILIANS.  STANLEY WILLIAMS KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE THAT ARENT EVEN REMOTELY A THREAT. Also, bredren, let me note that HE STARTED THE CRIPS. THE DAMN CRIPS! HIS GANG MIGHT BE THE REASON OF YOUR DEATH ONE DAY! Stanley Williams started the worst gang around, and you think he shouldn't be put to death because he wrote children's books? No offense, friend, but your post shows how liberal you really are. All emotions, no logic on the facts at hand. Have you seen the photos of the dead people that were murdered? It's horrendous!

P.S., to the dude who  told me to go live in a hole, what kind of wannabe rasta are you? Real rasta dont wish such rude things upon another, so you might wanna get outta here and check ur attitude.

Oh yeah, M-Dub, about your "How can another sinner cast stones upon another sinner" thing, umm yeah, MURDER is worse that stealing! Murder is taking  a soul. So ur point holds no weight, because  some sins are far  worse logically than others.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 14, 2005, 08:44:26 PM
Quote
before you call people ignorant you should look at yourself first.


Lol. I never called anyone ignorant, I don't know how to say it any clearer than how I already posted my words twice. I'll try once more as they say third time is the charm. "This statement is based in pure ignorance (not saying you, yourself are ignorant) See where I said that I'm not saying you are ignorant? I don't think you're ignorant at all.  [smiley=smiley.gif]

Quote
i dont need first hand knowledge of the crime to know that the man was a beast


So, you do believe everything you hear or read, I guess that answers my question.

Quote
is everything you belive or accept you have first hand knowledge of?


Not everything, I rarely deal in absolutes.

Quote
the law in los angeles said he was the killer, and a jury of his peers found him guilty and that is enough for me.


Really? A jury of his peers? So a bunch of white people are his peers when he lived in an all black neighborhood? How is this so? Again, the "law" that he was tried under was the same one that has put many innocents to death.

Quote
again m-dub, before you get excited and call people names look at your self,


Sorry, where did I call someone a name? Maybe you could show me, I'm not finding any evidence.

Quote
i dont have an idea what i am talking about? what makes you think you do... do u have a monoply on the truth?.


No, I do not have a monopoly of the truth, but I also didn't claim to know something as a fact because I read about or heard someone talk about a topic.

Quote
"You never met Stanley Williams" /M-Dub
 
And you have?


No, which is why I never said he was innocent or guilty.  [smiley=smiley.gif]

Quote
The thing is, Iraq soldiers DONT KILL PEACEFUL CIVILIANS


Yes they do. Over 30,000 confirmed dead by the president (though the real number is much higher). Perhaps you should do some research on this.

Quote
STANLEY WILLIAMS KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE THAT ARENT EVEN REMOTELY A THREAT.


How do you know? Because the news told you?

Quote
Also, bredren, let me note that HE STARTED THE CRIPS. THE DAMN CRIPS! HIS GANG MIGHT BE THE REASON OF YOUR DEATH ONE DAY!


This is incorrect. A human might be responsible for your death, not his gang. We are all responsible for our own actions.

Quote
Stanley Williams started the worst gang around, and you think he shouldn't be put to death because he wrote children's books?


No, he shouldn't be put to death because murder doesn't solve murder. (-1)+(-1)=(-2)

Quote
All emotions, no logic on the facts at hand.


The only lack of logic is when someone blindly believes something because the news or the "law" says it is true.

Quote
So ur point holds no weight, because  some sins are far  worse logically than others.


Sin is sin in the eyes of Jah. You obviously completely missed my point. My point was what gives a human the right to decide if another human should die?

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: toshIte on December 14, 2005, 10:21:28 PM

U probably arent black,  and if u r, then u know so little of your own people that it is just plain painful. ( but not to make this a black or white issue)
There is no place on this planet where black pple are, live or exist where the youth (black) dont join up or form groups or gangs or whatever.  From Jo´burg to Peckham to the far east.
The Stanley williams case is a black issue.  THEY JUST KILLED ANOTHER BLACK LEADER.  keep on applauding

There are vigilante groups in texas that shoot INNOCENT latin southern americans (illegally (so called)) crossing the border.
Cops killing innocent pple. People dying in  G.I custody in Iraq.
Innocent People in iraq killed are labelled collateral. Remember the first missile launched that was supposed to get saddam so the war could have been ´avoided`.
It killed innocent pple too.Women and children. Read up on the use of white phosphorus and sound waves in residential areas  and so on.

I am not saying I approve of gangs or violence generally, fact is , they are part and product of society. They do a lot of harm, they do some good. it is all relative and depends on ur point of view.
The crips are no diff than the lapd, swat teams, cia, mossad or jesuits.


And to the kind of wannabe rasta I am, lol. I´d rather be rude than be dangerously ignorant.



Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 14, 2005, 11:00:31 PM
so if one doesnt agree with the company line they must not be black?

why dont you check my location, and i was born and raised there, so u cant talk to me about being black., and yes i know who i am.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 15, 2005, 12:15:10 AM
Still waiting for your reply Ras.  [smiley=smiley.gif]
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Rasta_Man_410 on December 15, 2005, 01:10:49 AM
M-Dub, what else do YOU know except for what you hear on the news? I myself have read the trial account, the conviction, and the testaments by his peers that said that he bragged about these  murders, especially the one with the white man Albert C. Umm just to let you know, you said it's not the gang's fault but the human's fault if you are killed, you ever heard  of gang-related killings? That's because of gangs! Also, gangs have actually plotted to kill people! OMG!!!! Yeah, M-Dub, don't even keep arguin it with me I'm done with this issue I will never get ur standpoint and you won't get mine so lets consider it a stalemate between me an u. Peace an love bro. No love for ToshIte who knows nothin but rudeness.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 15, 2005, 04:09:29 AM
M-dub what can i say, you just want to keep saying the same stuff, you wont change my mind and neither would i,

reasoning with people who think they know everything is futile, cuss no one knows all.

i didnt say you deal with absolutes, but i am perfectly sure there are many things that u beleive accept that you have no first hand knowledge of.

if we would only accept things that we witnessed how backward a thinking is that, and it is simply impossible.

if muderers do not want to be put to death they should have thought about their brutal ways first.

like i said, until you are in the shoes of the people he killed, then u can say whether he shouldnt die....

the people he killed are innocent beings and he deserved to be killed for that, simple as that.

selah.

Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: toshIte on December 15, 2005, 04:55:47 PM
U got no love for me!  wow. didnt know u had to begin with.

Now Im thinking  ´410´ ways to say  WHATEVER.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 15, 2005, 06:28:13 PM
Quote
M-Dub, what else do YOU know except for what you hear on the news? I myself have read the trial account, the conviction, and the testaments by his peers that said that he bragged about these  murders, especially the one with the white man Albert C.


That's the difference between you and I. I read the same things and pass no judgement. You read what you read and judge another man when you really have no idea what really happened. I also have no idea what happened, that's why I don't say "he's guilty" or "he's innocent".

Quote
Umm just to let you know, you said it's not the gang's fault but the human's fault if you are killed, you ever heard  of gang-related killings? That's because of gangs! Also, gangs have actually plotted to kill people! OMG!!!!


Can you not see that everything is done by choice? This is common sense. I hope you don't think that someone holds a gun to a persons head and says "join this gang or you'll die" and then they hold a gun to that same person's head and say "kill this person or you'll die". This is not the reality. You obviously have no experience with gangs. Everything is by personal choice, period.

Quote
Yeah, M-Dub, don't even keep arguin it with me I'm done with this issue I will never get ur standpoint and you won't get mine so lets consider it a stalemate between me an u.


See, I'm not arguing, just trying to get you to walk in the ways of the Lord. To judge another man based on no real knowledge is a false judgement. This is not the way of Jah. To say someone deserved to die, is not the way of Jah. I'm stating what I'm stating because what you've been saying is full of unnecessary negativity.

Quote
M-dub what can i say, you just want to keep saying the same stuff, you wont change my mind and neither would i,  
 
reasoning with people who think they know everything is futile, cuss no one knows all.


Not at all, I just had numerous questions you kept dodging, it's all good, I was simply interested in your response.  [smiley=smiley.gif]

Quote
i didnt say you deal with absolutes, but i am perfectly sure there are many things that u beleive accept that you have no first hand knowledge of.


Yes, that's what I just said, lol.


Quote
if we would only accept things that we witnessed how backward a thinking is that, and it is simply impossible.


Not at all. Possibility is only limited by the mind. Anyways, I didn't propose this as a way to live, but it is something worth contemplating. Regardless, in this case, to say a man was guilty simply because of what you've read is absolutely ridiculous.

Quote
if muderers do not want to be put to death they should have thought about their brutal ways first.


How do you know he was a murderer? See all the questions you keep dodging? Just be conscious of what you're avoiding.

Quote
like i said, until you are in the shoes of the people he killed, then u can say whether he shouldnt die....


Let me get this straight, I should be in the shoes of the people he killed (therefore dead) to say whether or not he should die, but you should be on your computer hundreds of miles away to say he should die? LOL!!!!! I'm sorry, but how can you not laugh at that?  [smiley=rolleyes.gif]

Quote
the people he killed are innocent beings and he deserved to be killed for that, simple as that.


You should be put in jail for all the people you robbed. See what's wrong with that statement? It isn't true simply because I wrote it now is it? So, why would you believe something else, just because it's written? I know you won't answer this question as you keep running from it (as well as many others I asked), but I just want others to see how ludicrous this thought process is.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Rasta_Man_410 on December 15, 2005, 07:15:31 PM
M-Dub, one last thing. You say gangs dont force people to do things? That's BS. And you say I have no experience? Also BS. I have been friends with many people who have been in the Black Mob of Baltimore and I would know some things that go on. M-Dub, maybe if you live in inner-city America where you are vulnerable at many times, you will finally understand what it means to put people to death. That's all, no matter what else you say I wont respond unless you say I don't know what I'm talkin about (directly like that OR inferred), then I will have to prove u wrong once again. Peace be wit ya
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 15, 2005, 08:22:01 PM
Quote
M-Dub, one last thing. You say gangs dont force people to do things? That's BS.


Actually it is truth. Tell me if you think I'm wrong, how? What evidence do you have that gang murders are only commited because kids are forced to do so? (I know you won't respond with proof because such evidence is non existent).

Let me say two things: One, your words are completely disraspectful and negative to all on this site. I do not use the word "reasoning" with you because you do not do such a thing.

Second, you are a wolf in sheeps clothing. How can you claim the name of RastafarI when promoting killing and false judgement? Jah will judge you in the same light in which you judge others.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Wahine on December 16, 2005, 02:46:51 AM
Such fussin' an fighten'.

Great words M-Dub. I agree with you.
None of us are here to judge. It is not our place to do so.
Like i said before you can not blame one person (Tookie) for crimes committed by others. Yes gangs are not a good thing but let's be real about this. Many people join gangs cause it's the only family they know. It's a place where they feel accepted and feel like they belong for once in their lives.
They finally get the recognition that most of them did not get from their own families and many will do whatever it takes to belong top the gang "family".
It's just the way the world is.
I don't know your past 410, but i'm guessing that you should be thankful that your parents loved, cared for you and bought you up with morals and values. [smiley=smiley.gif]
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 16, 2005, 05:21:26 AM
the apology: http://www.tookie.com/apology.html

san quentin crowd on day of execution: http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/gasper131205.html
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 16, 2005, 01:36:24 PM
when he is ready to stand up and apologize for the people he murdered, then i would consider he apologized until then, its just abosulte nonsense trying to save his own skin. am glad there are people who are willing to see to it that lthe aw is carried out.



Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 16, 2005, 02:48:53 PM
after listening to tha man speak, reading alittle of what he wrote and hearing all the youngsters black and raza thanking him for his books and how they stayed out of gang life i feel he was redeemed, i feel it in my heart. so i do not doubt this man when he says he did not do these particular crimes. to me, when he refused to partake of the state sanctioned death rituals that walking dead men go thru come execution time; that was another sign to me that this man had turned into a rainbow warrior, a man with a clear conshuss who thru his redeemable actions woke up to realeyes that he was another victim of babylon so he saw no reason to partake inna tha deathcultures phony death ritiual that is reserved for the poor mainly.this is not the truth, juss how i see it.



[If you are going to kill Tookie for killing someone else aren't you defeating the purpose of the lesson which in my view is that no one has the right to take another's life. I'm an Ex-Crip. After seeing Redemption and watching one of his messages to us youth out there i changed,and so have about 20 of my closest friends. He has given so many the will to have life. It takes a bigger man to say I'm out than to walk along in silence. Give Tookie clemency. But even if all the thousands of pleas go unoticed I want to say THANK YOU TOOKIE FOR SHOWING ME WHAT IT TRULY MEANS TO BE GANGSTA, HAVIN THE COURAGE TO DO WHAT'S RIGHT. I and my fellow ex-crips continue to fight, not physically but for our friends who have not yet seen that there is light at the end of the tunnel. While i breathe i hope! ]

peace
north carolina


http://www.tookie.com/mail.html




what's the reson you choose not to believe him?





                                respect, paco
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Rasta_Man_410 on December 16, 2005, 07:50:15 PM
Quote

Actually it is truth. Tell me if you think I'm wrong, how? What evidence do you have that gang murders are only commited because kids are forced to do so? (I know you won't respond with proof because such evidence is non existent).

Let me say two things: One, your words are completely disraspectful and negative to all on this site. I do not use the word "reasoning" with you because you do not do such a thing.

Second, you are a wolf in sheeps clothing. How can you claim the name of RastafarI when promoting killing and false judgement? Jah will judge you in the same light in which you judge others.

One

Jah bless


Jesus Christ M-Dub you never stop do you. You know I'm not gonna respond because I said I wasn't! You really need to take a look at yourself and realize all YOU'RE doing is insulting me. Hahahaha I shall not reply to any more rude comments, for I will not let myself go down to your level. Peace.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 18, 2005, 09:05:54 PM
killafornia cartoon by 'lalo': http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeo9ewi/proudtobeblack/



same as above: http://cagle.msnbc.com/politicalcartoons/PCcartoons/lalo.asp
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 20, 2005, 04:30:56 AM
tookies funeral info: funeral service for Stan Tookie Williams live ontha web tuesday at noon pst


http://www.savetookie.org/
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 21, 2005, 05:07:39 AM
True Story: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/20/1434244
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 21, 2005, 07:22:15 PM
Quote
Jesus Christ M-Dub you never stop do you. You know I'm not gonna respond because I said I wasn't! You really need to take a look at yourself and realize all YOU'RE doing is insulting me. Hahahaha I shall not reply to any more rude comments, for I will not let myself go down to your level. Peace.


If you believe you are higher than I and I, then it is so in your eyes. I am but flesh and blood as you are, I consider Iself no higher, no lower. If I insulted you, then I apologize. Sometimes the truth hurts. The truth is, you do not represent Rasta even though you wear that name, I do not mean this as an insult.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: TREE-NATTY on December 21, 2005, 09:24:25 PM
E.M.HTP!!!!!!

I live in a gang infested neighborhood and city, Newark, NJ. Mainly there are crip sets all over newark and a few blood sets in East Orange, NJ (famous for the birth place of Laurn Hill). Gangs are not the problem when it comes down to family. There was an article in the magazine "F.E.D.S" in which they interviewed the west coast founder of the P Stone Bloods, J.D. Rogers. And he explained that families needs to be more focus on their child and their activities. This reason and this reason alone is why gangs exist. One have to realizes that a gang is the member family. So yes anything that their gang/family need them to do they will do! With the P. Stone Bloods they would force young member who were still in school to go to school! And if they fought, act-up with a teacher or in class, or didn't do homework. The school wouldn't call your parents, they would call the leader of your set. And work you over good for disrespecting the schools rules. The schools supported the bloods because of what they were doing and how their tactics, rough but effective, worked! So no one can't tell me that gangs sets are all bad it just depends on the leader.
In Tookie case he had to form the the "cribs" aka crips because of gov't agent pushing drugs into our black communities. This is why Tookie at the time had so much anger that he killed the white boy in which he was convicted of. Because in his mind all white people were his enemy from what HE SAW! After the break up of the Black Panther Party. Former members join Tookie and others to make the cribs/crips and well establish force within the black community. They would beat the crap all of all cocaine and dope dealers sending them back to their gov't agents empty handed. This is why a lot of people believe in Tookie innocense. There is a thin line between love and hate and the ones who know absolutly nothing on why gangs exist just need to say nothing. If you don't know you don't know. And you'll never know because you don't understand the black people have a common enemy who works both sides of the fence. And use weak minded blacks against other weak minded blacks. Tookie wasn't weak minded, so they had to get rid of him. This is why Tookie has died, as the ole saying goes "his was a loud negro makin all the other good negros thinking they don't need us"

TUA TUKI (Bless Tookie)
HRU
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 21, 2005, 10:57:02 PM
[In Tookie case he had to form the the "cribs" aka crips because of gov't agent pushing drugs into our black communities.]

so true! this reminds me also of that reporter who commited suicide (yea right) a couple of years ago that was investigating this whole deal, i think his last name was
webb.







We must remember, and never forget, that the ultimate aim and the denial objective of the United States Government towards Black people is that we must never become effectively organized.
Louis F.










http://www.guerrillafunk.com/video/cia_bg.html


Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 21, 2005, 11:35:54 PM
the redeemed muderer is looking like a saint almost , i mean very soon hitler will start to look good too.

not comparing the two, but with such observations, hitler could have been redeemed as well if he started writing nice children books blah blah blah.

the guy is dead, he deserved what he got, while you shedding all these tears for a wikkid thug, dont forget the victims of his wikkid ways.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 21, 2005, 11:55:17 PM
Quote
the redeemed muderer is looking like a saint almost , i mean very soon hitler will start to look good too.


You still haven't explained how you know he was guilty, I'm interested as to what evidence you saw from the trial.

Quote
not comparing the two, but with such observations, hitler could have been redeemed as well if he started writing nice children books blah blah blah.


You are comparing the two actually. They have absolutely nothing in common so such a comparison is irrelevant.

Quote
the guy is dead, he deserved what he got, while you shedding all these tears for a wikkid thug, dont forget the victims of his wikkid ways.


These are not the words of a caring, righteous person. I'm guessing the "Ras" in your name doesn't have anything to do with RastafarI.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 22, 2005, 02:37:10 AM
M-dub lets get something straight i really dont care what you think, words of the righteous what do you know about me to classify me as un-righteous, you are really over reaching lil yut, you are nobody and i really dont give a neck what you think.
the ras i carry in my name i dont need to justify to you or anyone else for that matter, i am getting really sick and tired of your juvenile ways, if u wana reason, reason, dont start telling i who i am or am not.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 22, 2005, 04:38:48 AM
this mans son was murdered, he tells what happened. he is involved intha reverence movement. thot someone might enjoy this mans talk.


http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/contentviewer.php?content_id=1052
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 22, 2005, 05:22:36 AM
ras bongo, if you had the chance would you have been willing to execute tookie with tha states authority? i know you believe he was a murderous thug but don't you believe he had a change while in solitary confinement? i'm not asking if he was innocent i'm juss wondering if you believe people can change? why not him?








from internet infidels:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another problem with Death Penalty is the fact that once you're dead, reviewing your case will be no use. New evidence? Tough luck!

An additional danger is that you might get a governor who's trigger happy (should I say "gas happy"? Now... that sounds like someone I know, but with a total different meaning!  ). Someone who's hasty about gasing people up (oh, ich bin so proud, it reminds mich of my Zyklon-B days!), who hires judges who don't care about the unfairness of killing retards and the mentally unsound, who look at your face, and if you look "ethnical" then "yer gonna git it!"

You look like you jumped out a hip-hop video? Take a deep breath...

You look kind of Arab-ish? You shouldn't have left your country, camel-boy!

You didn't swear on the Bible? Don't tell me you're one o' them ay-theeists! (judge gives an eerie face-wide smile and rubs his hands, and then gets stern-looking): Of course you killed her! You ain't got no morals you Jesus killer!

Imagine, it could be the governor of a big state. He could even get to be President. Soon you know he doesn't care about the Geneva convention, start arresting foreigners in foreign lands! No lawyer, just orange jumpsuits on a remote off-shore base, away from possible protesters!

I know, I know, my imagination has gone wild, I know. It happens once in a while, just jumps and goes haywire. Exagerated. It could never in all honesty happen. Right?

... uh, right?
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 22, 2005, 07:28:23 AM
paco, yes i do believe people can change, however it is very convenient to have a change when one is sitting behind bars..

on my personal view if you ask every prisoner behind bars they would say they indeed have changed their wikkid ways, when indeed they have not, but for conveniece must criminals say they are innocent or they have a change of heart.

for me no matter how much one claims to change it has no effect on the ill deeds they have committed against society, writing childrens books doesnt negate killing four innocent people.

selah
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 22, 2005, 06:37:57 PM
Quote
words of the righteous what do you know about me to classify me as un-righteous,


I didn't classify you, you classified yourself. Promoting murder is not the way of a righteous person.

Quote
you are nobody and i really dont give a neck what you think.


I am a human. You don't have to care about my words, it's all love.

Quote
the ras i carry in my name i dont need to justify to you or anyone else for that matter,


You don't have to justify anything to me or others here. I'm just showing those new to the forum that you do not represent the mentality of RastafarI.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Elect on December 23, 2005, 12:30:52 AM
I agree that no one can be forced to do anything...everything is a choice...just because someone tells you that you have to do something does not mean you really have to...Ultimately...the decision is up to you whether to actually do it or not...One Love
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 23, 2005, 02:46:56 AM
M-dub again, you are nobody yutmon to say what i am. i dont promote murder and i didnt muder anyone, lets not loose sight the issue is 4 innocent people are killed... you dont even have the decency to see that. yet ini defending the victims of this wikkid being makes i a promotor of murder.

you are really misguided and mis-informed, who put you incharge of who is ras or who is not?

all you are showing new comers is the nonsense you speak, again i dont need justification or acceptance from anyone, certainly not from a likkle yut like you.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 23, 2005, 03:33:14 AM
for those interested, if not being presented in your area tune in here:



Monday December 26 from 2 to 4 pm KPFK (kpfk.org) will be broadcasting a two-hour special, audio from the funeral ceremony of Stan "Tookie" Williams" The Funeral Ceremony of Stan "Tookie" Williams took place on December 20, 2005 at the Bethel AME Church in South Los Angeles – Honorary guests and speakers included Rev. Jesse Jackson, Tony Mohammed, Bianca Jagger, Snoop Dogg, Barbara Becnel, Rudy Lanlais (producer of the film about Tookie Williams "Redemption"), and the eulogy was given by Minister Louis Farrakhan.


                         Jah live


ps- this is impressive to me: http://www.savetookie.org/documents/program.pdf




Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: EmpressCarla on December 23, 2005, 03:36:06 AM
Blessings

Someone told me, "Man judges, Jah forgives!" I am so glad that Jah is a forgiving, merciful GOD. For He alone knows that in life we make mistakes. Sometimes we make HUGE, regretful mistakes. Yet in Jah, ALL can be forgiven if we truly have a repentant heart. I am grateful for that. Because in this life, I won't always "get it right" the first time I am tried. I won't always do the right thing. Sometimes, because of what I've been conditioned to, I won't live the highest truth. But through Jah, I can still be redeemed. Truly, our God is an Awesome God!

Now, that doesn't mean I won't reap what I sow. Jah's forgiveness doesn't mean I get to circumvent natural law. Even still, I know that above all, EVERYTHING IS JUST AS IT SHOULD BE. For Jah is balance.

Be blessed in HIM Haile Selassie I Jah Rastafari
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Wahine on December 23, 2005, 07:35:43 AM
Tree-Natty i liked what you had to say (a lot).
There has been much fighting over this issue.
rasbongo, i see where you are coming from. Yes innocent people have died. (No one has ever paid the price for my friend's deaths. Wish someone would at times.)
There is no turning back now, and no matter what new evidence they find they will never be able to bring him back.
However my question still remains as to whether it would have been so bad to let him stay in prison until he died of old age?
And as EmpressCarla said sometimes we all make huge.regretful mistakes.
At the end of the day no one is innocent of screwing up things life, but we gotta do our best while we got the chance to do it.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 23, 2005, 05:37:04 PM
Quote
M-dub again, you are nobody yutmon to say what i am. i dont promote murder and i didnt muder anyone, lets not loose sight the issue is 4 innocent people are killed...


You said that he should be put to death and that he deserved to be executed.  Execution is murder, therefore you promoted murder.

Quote
yet ini defending the victims of this wikkid being makes i a promotor of murder.


No, you promoting execution makes you a promoter of murder.

Quote
you are really misguided and mis-informed, who put you incharge of who is ras or who is not?


I do not define nor have I ever defined RastafarI. However, I have learned enough about RastafarI to know that Rasta deals with life, Rasta does not promote death or murder.

Quote
all you are showing new comers is the nonsense you speak, again i dont need justification or acceptance from anyone, certainly not from a likkle yut like you.


Ah, so speaking against judging others and speaking out against promoting the execution of human beings is nonsense? I think your words speak for themselves.

Quote
Someone told me, "Man judges, Jah forgives!" I am so glad that Jah is a forgiving, merciful GOD. For He alone knows that in life we make mistakes. Sometimes we make HUGE, regretful mistakes. Yet in Jah, ALL can be forgiven if we truly have a repentant heart. I am grateful for that. Because in this life, I won't always "get it right" the first time I am tried. I won't always do the right thing. Sometimes, because of what I've been conditioned to, I won't live the highest truth. But through Jah, I can still be redeemed. Truly, our God is an Awesome God!


I believe this is so true. This is the mind state that I strive to achieve.

Quote
However my question still remains as to whether it would have been so bad to let him stay in prison until he died of old age?


One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 23, 2005, 05:54:49 PM
tookie showed absolutely no repentance towards the innocent people he murdered.

the law of california stated that all murderers if found guilty through the court system can sit in jail for the duration of their life or put to death, but when tookie was convicted the law and jury sentenced him to death and for his crimes he paid.

writing books will never and could never negate the crimes he committed.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 23, 2005, 08:29:19 PM
Quote
tookie showed absolutely no repentance towards the innocent people he murdered.


Maybe that's because he didn't do it.

Quote
the law of california stated that all murderers if found guilty through the court system can sit in jail for the duration of their life or put to death, but when tookie was convicted the law and jury sentenced him to death and for his crimes he paid.


The "law" of California is a joke. There are more people in jail for life for a third strike marijuana offence than for murder, rape and robbery combined!

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Jazzy on December 24, 2005, 12:22:26 AM
Like I already said in a previous forum on the same topic, it is ridiculous that they executed a man who spent the past 2 decades trying to do good and help bring down the society (Crips) that he helped start by helping the youth sway away from that life of violence meanwhile they (California) have Charles Manson and Richard Ramirez sitting on death row....2 of the most ruthless cold hearted murderers in history, Charles Manson has been behind bars for over 30 years.....and they aren't doing ANYTHING but sit there. I'm not going to get onto the whole topic of whether or not Mr. Williams was gulity or not (though the way the system is set up, he could very well have been innocent) but the only ones that REALLY know what happened that night is Mr. Williams and Jah. Point is, they shouldn't have taken his life! And I pray for him, wherever he may be now....
Jah bless and protect,
~Joleena
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 24, 2005, 03:17:44 AM
December 14, 2005

The Execution of Stan "Tookie" Williams
They Murdered a Peacemaker
By ALAN MAASS

THE STATE of California rewarded redemption with cold-blooded murder--justified with a press release and carried out in the dead of night.

Stan Tookie Williams was put to death in the execution chamber at San Quentin Prison just past midnight on December 13.

The former leader of the Crips in Los Angeles has spent the last decade of his life as one of the most powerful and articulate voices warning youth against violence, crime and prison. Gang truces negotiated along the lines of his "Protocol for Peace" have saved lives across the U.S.

But it didn't matter to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who refused Stan's plea for clemency. Or to the state and federal judges, who turned a blind eye to the evidence of racism and bigotry in Stan's capital murder trial two-and-a-half decades ago. Or all the pro-death penalty politicians and media blowhards who calculated that Stan's death was in their interests.

They claimed that Stan's redemption couldn't be real. But it's their death penalty system that is irredeemably barbaric and unjust. This was the legal lynching of a Black man to advance political careers--an age-old tradition in American politics.


* * *

EVEN AS Schwarzenegger put off announcing his decision on clemency until the day of execution, Stan's supporters held out hope that he would acknowledge the evidence that Stan was sent to death row for crimes he didn't commit--and hear the voices of people testifying that this gang leader-turned-peacemaker changed their lives.

But the statement Schwarzenegger issued to justify his denial of clemency shows that he and the right-wing Neanderthals that feed him his lines in the governor's mansion never seriously considered the value of sparing Stan's life--and that all the talk of "facing a difficult decision" was a lie.

The five-page document rejected Stan's transformation from gang leader to peacemaker as a fake. "Williams' perennial nominations for the Nobel Peace Prize and Nobel Prize in Literature from 2001-2005 and the receipt of the President's Call to Service Award in 2005 do not have persuasive weight in this clemency request," reads a footnote in the document.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 24, 2005, 03:20:02 AM
Stan's anti-gang efforts were dismissed as "hard to assess the effect of such efforts in concrete terms, but the continued pervasiveness of gang violence leads one to question the efficacy of Williams' message," the statement said. "In other words," said Elizabeth Terzakis, an organizer with the Bay Area Save Tookie Committee, "Schwarzenegger went further than the jury and even the prosecutors did. He found Stan guilty of any and all acts of gang violence, anytime and everywhere."

Schwarzenegger--or, more precisely, the author(s) of the statement put out in his name--took special issue with Williams' dedication in his 1998 book Life in Prison.

"Specifically," read the governor's statement, "the book is dedicated to 'Nelson Mandela, Angela Davis, Malcolm X, Assata Shakur, Geronimo Ji Jaga Pratt, Ramona Africa, John Africa, Leonard Peltier, Dhoruba Al-Mujahid, George Jackson, Mumia Abu-Jamal, and the countless other men, women, and youths who have to endure the hellish oppression of living behind bars. The mix of individuals on this list is curious. Most have violent pasts, and some have been convicted of committing heinous murders."

Of course, the "curious" mix of individuals is a list of heroes in the struggles of people of color against oppression. The smearing of them is a grotesque insult added to the ultimate injury.

The statement singles out George Jackson, the Black Panther and prison activist who was murdered by guards in the prison yard at San Quentin in 1971--rewriting history to accuse Jackson of being responsible for that day of violence. It continues: "[T]he inclusion of George Jackson on this list defies reason and is a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems."


* * *

STAN'S EXECUTION was met with protests across the U.S.

Crowds of people gathered in the darkness outside San Quentin prison, clogging the narrow street that leads to the east gate--estimates of the size went as high as 5,000. People kept flooding into the demonstration late into the night, as the midnight hour approached when poison would be pumped into Stan's veins.

"Stanley Tookie Williams is a light that can never go out," said Christopher Muhammad of the Nation of Islam. "If Stanley Tookie Williams can't be redeemed, what hope do you hold for America?" Derrel Myers of Murder Victims' Families for Human Rights told the crowd, "If we want peace on our streets, we need justice in the schools and in the cities."

In Los Angeles, Stan's supporters gathered at four vigils and protests across the city. At the largest, 250 people turned out to the Westwood Federal Building, and then marched down Wilshire Boulevard to St. Paul the Apostle church, chanting the whole way.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 24, 2005, 03:20:44 AM
the law is the law, if people do not like the law they have the power to change it, but people cannot sit and try to apply the law to individual murderers as they see fit, just because they were writing childrens books.

whether the law of california is righteous or a joke doesnt matter, the bottomline is the people of california enacted that law into the books. hence the state of california is absolutely within its right to carry out the law, the man was convicted and sentence to death. the state was within its right to put him to death.

if the marijuana laws are outrageous the people have the power to change it, as long as it is on the books it is the law, if you dont like the laws dont sit around and complain, do something about it.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 24, 2005, 03:21:52 AM
The mood was naturally sad--but angry, too. "My hope is that we continue the fight to end the death penalty," said Stan Muhammad, speaking for the Campaign to End the Death Penalty and the LA Save Tookie Committee. "Schwarzenegger has made a big mistake," he said to cheers. "His decision will make us fight like never before."

Tom Goldstein, an innocent man who spent 24 years in jail before being exonerated, told the crowd, "I was arrested in 1979, the same year as Tookie Williams, and I can attest with firsthand knowledge that our judicial system is flawed. I believe that Tookie Williams' trial was also flawed, as his conviction was based on the testimony of an reliable jailhouse informants, questionable forensic evidence, and the testimony of self-serving co-defendants."

Hours before, in Washington, D.C., a protest for Stan outside the Justice Department headquarters led the local evening news. Some 40 people delivered a petition calling for emergency federal intervention to stop the execution. The petition had gathered hundreds of signers in just a half a day, and people around the U.S. and internationally faxed the statement to the Justice Department's civil rights division.

From San Diego to New York City to Chicago to Seattle and many other cities, dozens of people came out to protests, vigils and forums--to express their grief and anger at Stan's execution.

These protests were the culmination of a struggle that mobilized people across California and around the country. "The media focused on the celebrity involvement--people like Jamie Foxx and Snoop Dogg--which has been very welcome, but the key has been the grassroots organizing," said Phil Gasper, a philosophy professor who has nominated Stan for the Nobel Prize and who co-founded Educators for Tookie.

Many diverse organizations and individuals came together around the struggle to save Stan--anti-death penalty groups; the Nation of Islam and other religious organizations; community activists in Stan's hometown of Los Angeles and other cities; liberal civil rights organizations such as the NAACP; school students moved by Stan's books; and groups like the Bay Area's United Playaz that offer positive activities for at-risk youth.

"This was the biggest campaign to stop a California execution that there has ever been," Gasper said. "There has been nothing like it since the campaign to save Mumia Abu-Jamal in 1995."


* * *

FROM THE governor's office to the fanatical prosecutors to the largely silent Democrats at both the state and local levels, the authorities wanted to keep the discussion of Stan's case limited to sensationalized accounts of the 1979 murders that he was convicted of.

Right-wingers filled the airwaves with calls for blood--for example, the daily "Kill Tookie Hour" on AM radio in LA. Among those demanding execution the loudest was a deputy district attorney in San Bernardino County, John Monaghan--who himself faces a civil lawsuit for shooting and killing an unarmed driver he pulled over while working as a county sheriff's reserve deputy.

But the hypocrites on the right couldn't hide the fact that Stan's case shows so much of what's wrong with the death penalty system.

Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 24, 2005, 03:23:56 AM
His trial was a racist circus, starting with the jury selection--no Blacks allowed. "If American courts ever attempt to be fair, no Black person would ever stand trial in front of 12 non-Black Americans," wrote Donna Warren, an LA activist and former Green Party candidate for California lieutenant governor, wrote in the San Francisco Bay View newspaper.

During closing arguments at the trial, the prosecutor compared Stan in the courtroom to a caged animal in the zoo--and said that in his "natural habitat" of South Central LA, he would act like a "Bengel tiger."

None of the physical evidence found at the crime scenes was tied to Stan. Instead, the case against him was built around snitch testimony.

In fact, even as Stan's supporters awaited word from Schwarzenegger, further evidence of state misconduct emerged. In a sworn affidavit, posted at the www.savetookie.org Web site, a former prisoner, Gordon Von Ellerman says that he shared a cell with a prosecution witness in Stan's case, and that Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department personnel delivered copies of documents related to different criminal cases, including Stan's. The witness told Von Ellerman that he would use the information in the files to create his testimony against Stan.


* * *

AT THE same time, Stan represented another argument against the death penalty that the media never talk about--that a human being is more than their worst acts.

While Stan steadfastly maintained his innocence in the four murders that sent him to death row, he acknowledged his personal role in furthering the gang violence that plagued South Central Los Angeles.

And he did something about it. From behind bars in San Quentin--in a cell no bigger than most people's bathroom--he transformed himself into a writer and speaker, warning youth against gangs, crime and prison. His children's books and mentoring sessions with incarcerated youth and students won him the respect and love of uncounted young people around the country.

Stan outlined a "Protocol for Peace" that has been used to negotiate truces between rival gangs.

One incident last week underlined the importance of these efforts. As a blogger on a Web site dedicated to the life of hip hop star Tupac Shakur described it, a segment on the BET cable station showed several members of the Bloods gang--arch-rivals to the Crips that Stan co-founded--turning over weapons to a BET reporter, as a gesture of "good faith."

"The mainstream press can put headlines out about how the community leaders in LA are asking for calm, and that they are afraid of violence when the governor's decision comes down," wrote the blogger. "Why are the other sides of this story not reported, especially the BET and the Bloods story?"

Schwarzenegger's predecessor as governor, Gray Davis, was a lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the-key Democrat who watched the state budget for prison construction swell under his reign. By comparison, Schwarzenegger has been better, promoting parole for prisoners and last year adding the word "rehabilitation" to the name of the Department of Corrections.


Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 24, 2005, 03:25:52 AM
If any single person represents "rehabilitation"--in the worst of circumstances--it is Stan Tookie Williams. Granting clemency would have been the perfect opportunity for Schwarzenegger to prove that he was serious about his rhetoric.

It was an opportunity he failed. "This raises the question: Just what do people have to do to show to the criminal justice system that they've rehabilitated themselves," said Marlene Martin, of the Campaign to End the Death Penalty. "Stan has spent the last decade of his life devoted to steering youth away from gang violence, and he was far more successful at it than any politician. In killing Stan, the justice system showed that it will use its ultimate power in the most vicious and uncaring ways."

Elizabeth Terzakis agrees. "What the governor and the courts and the government made clear today is that justice doesn't matter, that redemption doesn't matter, that the voices of young people don't matter to them," she said. "It doesn't matter to them if a poor person or a person of color can't get a fair trial. It doesn't matter to them that people can change. And it doesn't matter to them whether young people growing up in impoverished cities with crumbling schools have any hope."


* * *

IN THE weeks before the execution, a remarkable groundswell of organizing to save Stan spread around the U.S.

In Los Angeles, when the execution date was first set, activists from the Campaign to End the Death Penalty organized a meeting in South Central LA. In an area ravaged by gang violence, so many people turned out to the first meeting that another was called for the next night. A diverse coalition kept up a steady pace of rallies, vigils, town-hall forums and other events to add to the pressure on Schwarzenegger.

In the Bay Area, where Stan's longtime advocate, journalist Barbara Becnel, had convened the Save Tookie Committee, activists organized a 1,000-strong rally November 19 featuring hip hop star Snoop Dogg. The movie Redemption--made about Stan's life and starring Jamie Foxx--was shown to big audiences in San Francisco and Berkeley, introduced by powerful speeches from actor and activist Danny Glover and others.

In New York City, as many as 150 people attended a December 6 forum in Harlem, featuring speakers from anti-racist and criminal justice groups, as well as spoken word and hip-hop performances from local artists. Newark, N.J., Deputy Mayor Ras Baraka and former members of rival gangs who organized a truce based on Stan's "Protocols for Peace" were among the speakers.

"How in the hell does this country, which is torturing and decimating Iraq, think it has the right to take Tookie's life," said Sundiata Sadiq from the Free Mumia Abu-Jamal Coalition and the Ossining, N.Y., chapter of the NAACP. "We leave here believing that we will save Tookie's life. But we also have a greater responsibility, because there are many more Tookies waiting to die."

When Schwarzenegger agreed to hold a private hearing December 8 on Stan's petition for clemency with only lawyers present, the Bay Area Save Tookie Committee, along with the Nation of Islam, the NAACP and the Campaign to End the Death Penalty, organized a "People's Clemency Hearing" on the steps of the California state capitol building.


Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 24, 2005, 03:27:05 AM
The diversity of the crowd showed how much Stan means to people--and how his case has come to represent everything that is wrong with the death penalty. As seventh-grader Zachary Williams from Richmond, Calif., put it, "Stan stands up for me."

Nation of Islam Western Regional Minister Tony Muhammad pointed out that "Stan isn't the only one who needs clemency. America needs clemency, George Bush needs clemency. If God can forgive America for her negative beginnings, for her crimes against Black people, then America can forgive Stanley Tookie Williams for his negative beginnings."

The high point of the event came in the form of a written statement of support from Linda Owens, the wife of one of the 1979 victims Stan was accused of killing. "I, Linda Owens, want to build upon Mr. Williams' peace initiative," her statement read. "I invite Mr. Williams to join me in sending a message to all communities that we should all unite in peace. This position of peace would honor my husband's memory and Mr. Williams' work."

The movement to save Stan stretched far and wide. In Watsonville, Calif., south of the Bay Area, 40 high school students walked out of classes a few days before the execution date to hold a protest calling for clemency.

The students had planned a speakout on campus during a morning break in classes, but when administrators called one of the leaders of the protest to the office to delay its start, the students left campus and marched through Watsonville's downtown, chanting "No more blood"--with school officials trailing them.

"I'll probably get suspended for this," 17-year-old senior Zeltzin Sanchez told a local newspaper. "But it's worth it, of course. Every life is worth it." "I lost two cousins to gang violence, but that doesn't mean I'm going to kill," she said. "We shouldn't kill. No more blood for blood."

Everywhere, activists recognized that the struggle to save Stan has created new alliances and strengthened the fight against the racist execution machine in the U.S. "Even if this goes badly, I think it's the beginning of a movement against the death penalty," a Sacramento grandmother, Sherri Johnson, said as the "People's Clemency Hearing" took place behind her.

Later, as the execution loomed, Bonnie Williams, Stan's ex-wife and the main spokesperson for his family, said she wanted to thank "everyone who has been supporting us from the bottom of my heart." "Tell everyone that I'm getting on board with the movement," she said. "I don't want this to happen to anyone else. I will not stop now--this is only the beginning. We're going to speak out against this death penalty, and everything else the system does."

Alan Maass is the editor of Socialist Worker. He can be reached at: alanmaass@sbcglobal.net

Petrino DiLeo, Phil Gasper, Sarah Knopp, David McCarthy, Jessie Muldoon, Elizabeth Schulte, Karl Swinehart and David Thurston contributed to this article.















































































http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-2/569/569_08_ElaineBrown.shtml






Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 28, 2005, 04:02:12 PM
Quote
whether the law of california is righteous or a joke doesnt matter, the bottomline is the people of california enacted that law into the books. hence the state of california is absolutely within its right to carry out the law, the man was convicted and sentence to death. the state was within its right to put him to death.


The people made the law? Do you have any knowledge of the creation of the laws of the United States? Do you truly believe the US is a democracy? I suggest you do some research on this as the US is not a democracy and the people really don't have a say.

Quote
if the marijuana laws are outrageous the people have the power to change it, as long as it is on the books it is the law, if you dont like the laws dont sit around and complain, do something about it.


Again, do your research. People did try to change the laws. In fact, they recently legalized cannabis for medical use. Did that stop the US Federal Government from stepping in and throwing innocent sick people in prison? No. The majority of the population in California is pro medicinal marijuana. This did not stop the Supreme Court from ruling that federal law overrides state law, even though the majority in that state do not agree with the federal law. This is a perfect example of how the US is a dictatorship and is nothing close to a democracy.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 28, 2005, 06:04:08 PM
I am not interested in senseless reasonin, the law of the land is carried out through the states and the federal government, if you cant change it through state legislation there is always the option of the federal legislator, whether the usa is a democracy or not doesnt matter to me, the bottomline is that, whatever government or system currently existing in the usa is agreed to by the majority of the people.

whether i like the us government or not is not important, when the people dont like whats happening they can change it....

the law is the law, if the people agree or accept a wicked system that is what they will get in return, if they accept a free and fair system that is what they will get,

like the saying goes you reap what you sow.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 28, 2005, 07:09:27 PM
Quote
whether the usa is a democracy or not doesnt matter to me, the bottomline is that, whatever government or system currently existing in the usa is agreed to by the majority of the people.


No it isn't. This is why I said you should do your research, learn how the US was formed and you will learn that it is not a democracy and the majority are not represented.

Quote
whether i like the us government or not is not important, when the people dont like whats happening they can change it....


I just proved that this is not true in my post above this one.

One

Jah bless  
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 28, 2005, 08:45:02 PM
where exactly is the proof? you claiming that the usa is a dictatorship is quite laughable........

is the government perfect absolutely not, but my point is it is not up to you or anyone else, if the people of the usa are willing and accept whatever government they have that is there choice you have no standing or say whether their government is good or not... if the people of the usa dont like there government they can change it.

ps... it's petty and childish that you keep changing my karma, do i really care if my karma is -1000 ummmmmmm not.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 29, 2005, 06:41:15 PM
Quote
where exactly is the proof? you claiming that the usa is a dictatorship is quite laughable........


Here's the proof: People did try to change the laws. In fact, they recently legalized cannabis for medical use. Did that stop the US Federal Government from stepping in and throwing innocent sick people in prison? No. The majority of the population in California is pro medicinal marijuana. This did not stop the Supreme Court from ruling that federal law overrides state law, even though the majority in that state do not agree with the federal law. This is a perfect example of how the US is a dictatorship and is nothing close to a democracy. So in fact, it isn't laughable, it's actually true. You obviously have either never lived in the US or simply have limited knowledge about the country.

Quote
is the government perfect absolutely not, but my point is it is not up to you or anyone else, if the people of the usa are willing and accept whatever government they have that is there choice you have no standing or say whether their government is good or not...


Hold on, so I can't comment on US law or government but you can? Isn't that a little hypocritical?

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: rasbongo on December 29, 2005, 09:50:57 PM
My point is that isnt up to you, me or anyone, it is up to the people of the usa to decide, you and anyone else can decide its not a good law or government all you want, but that's not important, what is important is for the people of the country to choose there kind of government and laws.

the marijuana laws, that is your proof ? so that shows that the american government is a dictatorship? be real.... i suggest you lookup the meaning of dictatorship.

selah.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: paco on December 29, 2005, 10:31:06 PM
Stan Tookie Williams memorial service


watcha-------------- http://www.finalcall.com/webcast/tookie/




























































ps---- at the memorial one of the persons who was at the execution mentioned that as they left the death chamber they sang a Bob Marley song as this person and Tookie had talked about BM also.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 30, 2005, 12:52:55 AM
Quote
the marijuana laws, that is your proof ? so that shows that the american government is a dictatorship? be real.... i suggest you lookup the meaning of dictatorship.


No, the marijuana laws were not my proof. You completely missed the point of my post. I do know the meaning of a dictatorship. The US is a dictatorship.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: Magnus on December 30, 2005, 02:07:27 AM
   Dictatorship (dictionary.com)


1. The office or tenure of a dictator.
  2. A state or government under dictatorial rule.
  3. Absolute or despotic control or power.

While one can safely say that the united states is no democracy it would be incorrect to say that it is a dictatorship since the president does not wield absolute power. Like most dictators he can get away with practically anything, but he can also be forced to resign (the watergate thingy). The united states is a sort of semi-dictatorship.

One thing that will be interesting to see is the first woman president OR the first black president OR the first black woman president. That'll take a looooong time.
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: M-Dub on December 30, 2005, 09:05:41 PM
Greetings and peace.

The president isn't the dictator, the government itself is.

One

Jah bless
Title: Re: Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Post by: mirat on April 12, 2007, 01:46:54 AM
respect!

for InI We are di government,
dictator is those who lead the dictatorship...

protection and guidance!