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Author Topic: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua  (Read 9420 times)

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Rasdave21

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The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« on: February 07, 2008, 06:05:53 PM »

Toldoth Yeshu

In the same fashion that early Christian writings and the Gospel narratives are so overwhelming bogged down in mix and match mythology and Allegory from cults ingested into the Christian fold in its formulative years , the rabbinical writings of Jesus in the Talmud are similarly steeped with a Zionist anti-Christian slant.  Neither the Hebrew or Christian versions represent a neutral historical record of Jesus.

Some believe that the Toldoth Yeshu is nothing more than a parody of a lost gospel.  Hugh J. Schonfield argued that it was  closely connected to the now lost Gospel of the Hebrews, a more likely candidate would be the lost book Mar Yesu .  Toldoth Yeshu is only traceable as far back as the 4th to 5th Century which tends to add weight to the argument that it is a parody or medieval literary device used by the Rabbinic Community to comment on their relationship to and with early Christians.   

That the names Yeshu ,Yeshua, Yehoshua and various similes are Hebrew / Aramaic equivalent of the Greek Ioesus / Jesus are irrefutable [13], no serious scholar denies this . The Toldoth Yeshu translates to the Tale of Jesus or Generations of Yeshu.  There are several slightly varying versions of  the Toldoth Yeshua - The Florence manuscript, The Munich manuscript, The Paris manuscript, The Genizah Manuscript fragments found in Cairo are probably the earliest Jesus in the Talmud stories. [See: The Earliest External Evidence to the Talmud: Jesus Stories ] [Genizah text Toledot Yeshu] .

 


   
In  the Toldoth Yeshua, Yeshu ben Pandera was a Jew who went to Egypt, became proficient in their magical arts , returned to Judea, went about healing many people and incurred the hostility of the religious upper echelon -the Sanhedrin.

He was stoned to death at Lud [Al-Lud or Lydda] , and his body was "hanged on a tree" on the eve of Passover.

The Toldoth Yeshua begins with, John of the house of David, getting engaged to Miriam, originally from Bethlehem, the daughter of a neighboring widow. A certain Pandera also had desires for Miriam. On a Sabbath night he came to Miriam during her period ,raped her, and Yeshu was conceived.

Miriam thought Pandera was her husband-to-be and yielded to him after a struggle, greatly astonished at the behavior of her fiancÚ'. When the real fiancÚ, John, came she made her anger clear to him. He immediately suspected Pandera and told Rabbi Shimon Ben Shetah of the incident. Miriam became pregnant, and since John knew that the child was not his, but was unable to prove who was guilty he fled to Babylon.
Jesus in Egypt: Discovering the Secrets of Christ's Childhood Years    

    Yeshu later became a student of Rabbi Joshua Ben-Perachia ,was taken to Egypt where he studied magic. He later returned to Israel and  The story continues with the adult Yeshu stealing the "Shem ha-Mephorash"[6], or the name of God "which must not be pronounced", from the Temple's Holiest of Holies, and utilizing it to perform miracles.

Yeshu is imprisoned , escapes and flees to Antioch and Egypt to learn more witchcraft. He later returns to Jerusalem ,to steal the secret name of God which he had lost.

- From what I have read about the Toldoth Yeshu it portrays Yeshua in more of a negative fahion with an extreme emphasis on how he practiced so called magic ion egypt. From the Akashik Records and many accounts in the early versions of many of the gnostic gospels the I overstands that Yeshua studied in Egypt in the Heliopolis mystery schools yes, but what he learned was not simply witchcraft it was far from it. I would like to call it mysticism or gnosis is what he learned from the mystery schools. He did not invoke or envoke or cast any spells from any records or accounts I have ever read anywhere else even in earlier Talmud writings. I feel like the story of Yeshua in the Toldoth Yeshu is for the most part very accurate but they put a negative aspect on everything that he did in his life. Why would early jewish people or cult of aton followers as I like to call them(no I am not being rascist just calling an early group of people by the name that accurate history gave to them when they were expelled from Khemet.)(Im also not referring to people who are of the true jewish religion that follow the Torah)(When I say cult of aton followers I simply am refering to what we call these days zionists.)Neway why would these EARLY jewish people accuse yeshua of witchcraft and STEALING the name of JAH?? Im confused about that but this text is probobly one of the most accurate versions of how yeshua was concieved and where he studied and lived his life. Bless up and I would like to hear how other I's feel about this script

Blayze
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2008, 07:32:15 PM »

One thing that is interesting is that Jewish people have been praying to  "Yeshua" (meaning the Jewish King to come, the messiah, g-d with us,etc..) referring to what they consider yet unfulfilled prophecy for a long time. So I can go to a Jewish gathering and hear them singing to "Yeshua" but they are not referring to Jesus or Pandera or whoever, but the messiah they are still "waiting on". Still neither most Jews or most Christians know that the whole thing relates to HIM. Because even if you don't believe in Jesus, what the Jews wanted in a messiah Selassie accomplished. Which is why many Christians feel the state of Israel is a sign of the second coming, And Jews a sign of the first.  The question being, Is Selassie I the second coming of Yeshua, or the First? At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, Because the same works are done either way. From a Christian/Rasta perspective that "Yeshua" was exiled and learned in Egyptian Mystery is of only casual significance as he was immaculately concieved to fulfill Judaic prophecy in Palestine as a declared leader of the Jewish people. Personally I think it was Yeshua who actually schooled Egypt at that time, Seen?  Spending time going over and taking issue with old texts to downstroy overstanding within the church is futile vanity. When Selassie defended all versions of the bible, That's the King telling us that the changes can be seen as divinely ordained. Foward to Zion throne, and end the fruitless bickering to prove whos version is Ital and whose is Babylon, because its that anti-unity, anti-christ spirit thats the only thing Babylon.     
Posted on: February 07, 2008, 06:56:02 pm
(When I say cult of aton followers I simply am refering to what we call these days zionists.)

This statement makes little sense. First of all people call many things 'zionist's". But what "accurate history" most correctly refers to as a Zionist is someone who helped establish the state of Israel- Like I said you referring to these people as the "Cult of aton" sounds like more or your typical anti Semitic propaganda.  If you want to call Jewish people the "cult of aton" that were "expelled from khemet" thats your right. But again it just sounds like more "jew hate" to me.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 07:33:48 PM by ELIJAH I »
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Brudda B

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2008, 08:39:01 PM »

Bless up Rasdave21,
Didn't the ancient Egyptian Cult of Aton reveer the God Aten, a sun God,who they believed was the sole creator of the universe?
Maybe I'm wrong,thats no way Jewish though is it?

Jah Rastafari
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Rasdave21

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2008, 09:09:23 PM »

Bless up Rasdave21,
Didn't the ancient Egyptian Cult of Aton reveer the God Aten, a sun God,who they believed was the sole creator of the universe?
Maybe I'm wrong,thats no way Jewish though is it?

Jah Rastafari
love
B

yes your right it is in no way jewish because people who follow the jewish religion and read the Torah are NOT followers of the cult of Aton. When I refer to the cult of Aton I refer to Akhenaton and the 18th dynasty of egypt who I believe truly are "The Jews" of the old testament. Akhenaton was known as the first teacher of Monotheism in Egypt, Strangely so was Moses refered as the same thing. And most of their stories of their life correlate hand and hand and Im not the first person to have ever brought this up either. Its well known within the egyptology community and those who study ancient Khemet. Im not saying Jewish people today who are of the jewish religion and read the torah are sun worshippers at all!!! All Im saying is that the cult of Aton was that dynasty of Egypt that was exiled and made their home around the area of Jerusalem and Mt. Sinai

Bless Up
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2008, 09:38:53 PM »

You Say

people who follow the jewish religion and read the Torah are NOT followers of the cult of Aton.

But say

Quote
the cult of Aton I refer to Akhenaton and the 18th dynasty of egypt who I believe truly are "The Jews" of the old testament.

If the wisdom of the Torah was established by "the Jews of the old testament" who you claim are the "cult of aton", then how can Jewish and Christian people following this book not be considered members of the same "cult"?



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surfmon_I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 11:09:46 PM »

Greetings and Many thanks for the wonderful points made Ras Dave and EliJah.  I was wondering where all this Istory is found.  Both Bredren are so full of Knowledge and Intrigue that it leave I man in awe of the ability to study so deeply.  It is at the beginnig of the road I find myself when it comes to Istory such as the points that have been made, and I give thanks for the views presented.
Raspect Bredren.
JahLive.
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 11:25:34 PM »

I just want to point out that while I raspect Istorians, I am not one. One CANNOT find JAH studying History or Mundane books. It is a personal relationship with the LORD alone that leads to Iritual Knowledge that is the foundation of RASTAFARI.
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Rasdave21

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2008, 12:08:10 AM »

You Say

But say

If the wisdom of the Torah was established by "the Jews of the old testament" who you claim are the "cult of aton", then how can Jewish and Christian people following this book not be considered members of the same "cult"?





Bless up Eli.. May I pose a question. Would you sacrifice animals to Yahweh? Or even Humans?? I dont believe you would and the Jews of the old testament practiced many different beliefs and morals than the Jewish people that read the Torah. Just because the Jews of the Old Testament created the Torah doesnt mean that that is what THEY believed was THEIR law. Many dictators and leaders of movements/religions have created books to control people/decieve the masses throughout time example: The Catholic Church and Canon Law. If you are a rasta you know that the Vatican promotes the catholic religion but the leaders of the vatican are not CATHOLIC they are SUN WORSHIPPERS. All these truths are evident if you search my bredren. Blessed Love
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2008, 01:42:48 AM »

Bless up Eli.. May I pose a question. Would you sacrifice animals to Yahweh? Or even Humans?? I dont believe you would and the Jews of the old testament practiced many different beliefs and morals than the Jewish people that read the Torah. Just because the Jews of the Old Testament created the Torah doesnt mean that that is what THEY believed was THEIR law. Many dictators and leaders of movements/religions have created books to control people/decieve the masses throughout time example: The Catholic Church and Canon Law. If you are a rasta you know that the Vatican promotes the catholic religion but the leaders of the vatican are not CATHOLIC they are SUN WORSHIPPERS. All these truths are evident if you search my bredren. Blessed Love

Did I tell you you could call me Eli?
As to your questions.
Would I Sacrifice Animals? Of Course, But that I am a messianic Jew. While where is the scripture that implies the Torah suggest to sacrifice humans as you insinuate? Its true that most modern Jews don't live 100% by the book, But I know many of them aspire to, while all of them accept the Iritual premise behind the entire Torah. It sounds like your trying to create some sort of schism between the Prophets, Patriarchs, and Scribes and the common Jew, Or between the Incient and Modern Jews but I have to tell ya buddy that its not happening. I and I been through too much to turn back now. :0 I and I Rastafari Iccept the Ible and its message and I and I advocate the Ible as the soulution to many problems in the world. We DO NOT endorse the ideology that the bible was create to maliciously deceive and control people as your suggesting. Why would our LORD "glory" in a piece a false propoganda? Are you Slandering the King by suggesting he held ill will towards Imanity? I as a Rasta know no such thing for sun worship. I defend that Catholics and all denominations and their leaders as True Christians and I defend the Jews as Jews who worship JAH but remain ignorant to the Christs manifestation 2000 years ago. It sounds like you have some sort of Ithority complex. Its always "the leaders" who are "sun worshiper's" but the "regular people" are following the "true religion" or Not? What do you even believe in "Ras"? Why cant you just Iccept Iveryone and what His Majesty teach and come away form all that paranoid conspiracy theorist finger pointing? Judah Conquered, Give Thanks and Foward.
Posted on: February 08, 2008, 01:37:59 am
I do have an opinion as to why Jews would write a piece like the "Toldoth of Yeshu" though, and that is fear, the desire to hold on the Judaism, and prevent people from converting to Jesus. Of course they had a negative version because Jesus kinda put them "out of business".
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 01:52:41 AM by ELIJAH I »
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Rasdave21

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2008, 02:02:22 AM »

you defend the VATICAN. And you call yourself rasta. I man laugh Fiya Pon Rome pon dem scissors and comb black people wan go home to mount zion the rightous throne. Ethiopia my bredren. That is what I believe. My homeland is Ithiopia and my dream and what I strive for is to return there. The principals of marcus garvey, Selassie and Yeshua are the principals I model my life after. I man dont hurt anything or anyone, STOP KILL THE ANT DEM!! all life should be respected and the real father no ask for blood but only love. Bless up
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 02:46:32 AM »

I man a deal with a global Iniversial conquerance. There is not a *molecule* in creation that doesn't belong to my Emporer. So where I and I going to go that not I home? A true I know the East is the Best Sameway. There is no Ithority or system that doesn't profit my Lord. The Vatican? Who dem? Ant maybe.  And if I don't defend them I'd just not give enough of a ras clot to even mention them. I and I live up as Kings and dont bother with pagans. Vatican claiming to rep Christ so I and I stand with them. I and I have no fear for dem popes. If someone not true thats dem problem but not my place to judge. Just leave dem alone and give thanks. But you all the time talking about this or that in the past. Tell I what the "Vatican" is doing to downpress people as we chatting?  I think you just need an enemy because if you realized no ones holding you down you'd have to admit how unproductive your being.
Posted on: February 08, 2008, 02:22:04 am
And you want to come at me about "stop killing ant"??? And  that "the father no require blood", When I already told you I am a messianic Jew meaning that I KNOW DAT, What you don't got ears?
Posted on: February 08, 2008, 02:43:50 am
The "real father"???? What other father is there? Seriously I'm glad that this shit has you so vexed. the "real father" Yeah I and I see where you coming from on that.
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Rasdave21

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 06:10:02 AM »

bro your the one that sacrifices animals dont turn this around on me.
Posted on: February 08, 2008, 05:47:33 am
The Vatican RIGHT NOW is planning to kill off 2/3 of the world population right now. This is ok with you I assume. I assume 911 was ok with you to seeing that the Vatican and the Jesuits worked that one out. You blasphemize every time you post. We all know your a jew but your not a rasta homeboy
Posted on: February 08, 2008, 05:50:52 am
oh and by the way, last I checked this subject post was about the toldoth yeshu and not about a question of my faith. You say judge not but you judge me with every word. Keep to the topic subjects or start a new post. I dont want to argue with you anymore
Posted on: February 08, 2008, 06:07:26 am
Oh I was also telling you not to sacrifice animals whether or not they are ants, goats or whatever you slaughter in the name of your so called god. What you said makes no sense because you already admitted that you would sacrifice an animal so obviously you dont know not to kill an animal in the name of god

Blayze
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Brudda B

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2008, 09:46:53 AM »

Bless up RasDave21

Thank you dread,this is all very informative and educational,please be patient with IandI as I man still in a struggle to overstand the point the dread is trying to express. With all due Raspect to you,I ask humbly,can it not be that the Cult of Aton being monotheistic religion was all but an inspiration structurely for subsequent monotheistic movements,Judaism et al..??

thanks for your time
Ras tafari
B
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natty threads

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2008, 03:17:47 PM »

BB do you believe in creation or that we evolved?

It is relevant to answering your question.
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2008, 04:09:33 PM »

bro your the one that sacrifices animals dont turn this around on me. you already admitted that you would sacrifice an animal so obviously you dont know not to kill an animal in the name of god

Yes we see exactly what your trying to do here. I told you I would sacrifice and animal to JAH BUT that I am a messianic Jew. This is obviously something beyond your Iritual capacity to fathom, But you think I'm questioning your faith? What faith?  It is you who question the faith of people of who use animal sacrifice.

The Vatican RIGHT NOW is planning to kill off 2/3 of the world population right now.  I assume 911 was ok with you to seeing that the Vatican and the Jesuits worked that one out.

Explain this information further and show us your evidence.



Big up BB, I sight the I's line of reasoning 10,000%



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