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Author Topic: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua  (Read 9435 times)

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Human

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2008, 04:42:38 PM »

"The Twin Deception" some may find this book interesting as it relates to the topic, there is plenty of references in it as well for those who like to cross check things for there own purposes.

NattyThreads you asked this: "BB do you believe in creation or that we evolved?"

What if we "Devolved"? in other words what if we did not evolve from matter, but, devolved from pure spirit originally and then through the process of cycles we slowly proceeded from pure spirit to more dense material form and now moving in the circle back to pure spirit? this is what the most ancient of human records tells us, this is from the Vedas. When you look at ancient history and there incredible knowledge of the universe such as the knowledge of other planets, the circumference of the earth down to the mile, the incredible mathmatics of the pyramids which are even beyond our understanding today, the ancient stories of the Golden Age, the stories from the priests of Solon in egypt and there ancient records of a time when men of great renown walked the earth, etc, etc.  We humans certainly were not dumb cave men and women who evolved into what we are today, ancient history proves this is wrong. Some believe that it was extra terrestrials that did all that stuff, maybe, I tend to believe otherwise, that it was us all along although we were of a greater stature physically and most certainly mentaly.
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natty threads

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2008, 05:09:30 PM »

Hmmm...I don't put much faith in the Vedas- just to be clear- not to judge-

BUT now I can answer to you, Human, that Judaism did not descend from Atan worship.

Monotheism was created with us. Perhaps we devolved because we made ourselves out to be The One True God or at any rate equal to.

Maybe it is through learning our own failings as flesh and redeveloping love and respect for The One Creator that we will be able to revolve.


Monotheism wasn't created BY mortal man. The One God is what CREATED man, mortal or otherwise.

Our soul is immortal and always has been- from the time we were created.

There is some reference that the soul perishes- but w/out looking at the original language I cannot be sure what the actual words say.

It is so irrelevant to me... I worship God because that's what God wants me to do.
What God does with me is almost not even my business.
And I must accept what He does...what choice do I have?

I certainly enjoy discussing it- as long as we stay friendly. ;)

Just for the record- I have been in the past a polytheist and I have been in the past a pretty serious pagan.
I was not "raised in Faith." It was hard-fought and hard-won.
I came near to death many times and firmly believe I was saved by God for bigger things- one of which is simply to learn to love and obey Him.

REGARDLESS of what you believe, if you worship God and try in your journey to walk hand in hand with Him, you and I are in the same Church. As my brother I must respect you and attempt to understand you, as well as I can. If we disagree we cannot call names or call "out." We must present what we know and how we know it and help one another to evaluate how best to love and worship our God.

Seen?

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Brudda B

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2008, 05:37:39 PM »

Irie Nattythreads
Sorry so long to get back to you...
Good Question,one I continually ask myself,which I know is flawed for man claiming rasta guidence...However I dont see how its relevant my friend as the question I posed to Rasdave was of a historical nature rather than a theological or evolutionary one.

Bless up
B

Posted on: February 08, 2008, 05:31:42 pm
Irie
Hope I did come accross as rude in any statements made,I man no expert on any of this,just a curious head ;D

Peace and love to all

B
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Human

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2008, 05:52:01 PM »

"I certainly enjoy discussing it- as long as we stay friendly". Of course, I agree.

 "Perhaps we devolved because we made ourselves out to be The One True God or at any rate equal to."

I don't mean devolved in any way as a punishment by God or a fleeing from God type of way, maybe it was a natural process the spirit needs in order to understand all aspects of itself, such as the embodiment in matter. Maybe in order for the spirit to reach a higher form of spirit it needed to go first through the phases of matter, similar in the way a baby is born in the womb, it first must go through many stages like chemical, mineral, animal and finally human stage. You can see these stages in fetology. Just a thought, take care.




Posted on: February 08, 2008, 05:44:30 pm
To BB: Thank you dread,this is all very informative and educational,please be patient with IandI as I man still in a struggle to overstand the point the dread is trying to express. With all due Raspect to you,I ask humbly,can it not be that the Cult of Aton being monotheistic religion was all but an inspiration structurely for subsequent monotheistic movements,Judaism et al.

I would say sure it could have been. Like a blueprint for other monotheistic religions. Was atonism the first monotheistic form of worship? not sure. The "Cult of Aton" .....sounds like your reading alot of Michael Tsarion material RasDave, not that that is bad it is just that i have only heard him call it that. One Love.
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natty threads

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2008, 09:22:12 PM »

Nobody has been in any way rude on this thread.

Hello BB- to me it is relevant because if you believe we evolved then there is no way for me to reason that we were monotheistic from Creation and as a natural result of having been created.

Human- I'm not sure I would say - reflecting to your paradigm- that “devolving” would be a punishment necessarily as much as the normal outgrowth of challenging one’s Creator. I’m not convinced God “punishes” anyone. We may perceive it as punishment, but so often what we perceive as punishment is the natural result of our own actions.

For example, if someone drinks too much, drives, crashes his or her car, and wakes up in jail with a hangover is that person being punished? I would say not. I would say that those are the natural expected consequences of drinking too much and driving.

Sometimes we suffer for the falling short of others, but that doesn‘t necessarily require any interference from supernatural forces.

In my opinion what we usually perceive as orders from God are actually information regarding how better to live and what we perceive as punishments are usually just the natural results of not taking advantage of that information.

I cannot agree that Atan worship is monotheism in any way related to Judaism.
The sun is a thing in the sky- it created nothing.

I am not certain of the Egyptian chronology with relation to Akhnatan and the Jews in Egypt, so I cannot comment there.
I have studied this, and in my opinion the chronologies are basically speculative.

I have often thought that Akhnatan may have been a monotheist, although misguided, because of the recent Exodus.
I cannot do but speculate, however, because I am not settled on an Egyptian chronology.

It is very clear from the bible that pagan sungod worship has been a thorn in the side of God‘s chosen people almost from the word Go.
That sungod worship is present in Judaism does not make it rightful respect of Yah.
God created the sun. God wants us to worship Him, not His creation. In my opinion.

As an aside, I used to be an exotic dancer. I was NOT familiar enough with the bible. All I knew was that there had indeed been dancers and prostitutes of all kinds on The Temple Mount.

As I was dancing, naked, for money for men, I believed in my heart that I was doing this for God and that what I was doing was a valid form of worship.

Was I really giving praise to Yah that was pleasing to Him?

I think not.

My life did not go as I thought it should, I was unhappy, and I was close to death many times in those years.

Every time God pulled me out of the fire so in that respect my love of God paid well, but my worship of God was NOT pleasing to Him and my life basically sucked.

Eventually I learned better and now I know.

Equating sungod worship in any form, in my opinion, is a dangerous, desperate, dead-end street, not the narrow road.

As an academic exercise, I am more than willing to reason about the chronologies, but I will need to see an outline of the chronology you are using. There are so many in Egyptology.

We cannot reason intelligently, in my opinion, unless we start with a common basis there.

So I suppose, if I am still welcome in this reasoning, I would need to know what order of Pharoahs is being used, and how you are relating them to other ancient histories.

I will not ride my horse so hard after this introduction. I can reason about a lot of things. I believe that I may be able to help you find clarity in your own thoughts on the matter if I am still welcome in the discussion. I can discuss theology speculatively for hours on end.

I have entertained many possibilities and would enjoy discussing the history of sungod worship and monotheism in Egypt as well as the possibility that Akhnatan is Moses.

For me to do this, however, I would need to know something more specific about how events and people are being placed in time.

I hope you will still welcome me in your reasoning in spite of my set views.

God bless.

http://www.varchive.org/dag/reconst.htm
I know many consider Velikovsky to be a quack, but Albert Einstein listened respectfully and spoke seriously with him.

At the least, his articles do shed some light in problems dating ancient events.
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 09:34:30 PM »

I def sight devolition vibes. I and I can even sight the vedas to the kali yuga, Christian end times say people falling out, everyone lazy to me, intelligence is feared and oppressed, techwanology make people complacent, neva count on dat. 
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Human

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2008, 09:45:30 PM »

that “devolving” would be a punishment necessarily as much as the normal outgrowth of challenging one’s Creator

I dont think you understood what i was saying, you say a "challenging ones creator"....this is not what i meant also. There is no challenge, no punishment, it would/could be natural phase that spirit must take, thats all.

"I cannot agree that Atan worship is monotheism in any way related to Judaism.
The sun is a thing in the sky- it created nothing"                                                  I believe what BB was asking (correct me if im wrong BB) is if the aton worship of egypt which was monotheistic in nature could have been just a blueprint for Judaic monotheism, the believing in one God, not necessarily sun worship.

Interesting you mention Velikovsky, he was very smart in his day and not untill recently many of his statements concerning many different theories are coming true and being found to be correct. No need to go into into them here.

Take care Sistren, God speed.

Not sure what you meant Elijah.
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2008, 10:33:51 PM »

Well according to the vedas and the bible too we are living in the most g-dless time of creation. Now is when everyone will abandon faith and rebel against the Ithority of JAH. This is a devolution to me.
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natty threads

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2008, 01:41:07 AM »

Human- then I must reflect more on what you are saying and read the vedas/some of to contribute meaningfully.
Would the natural path be somewhat related to the way Jesus had to take human form?

I need to read more.

Are you perhaps saying that we already existed and simply take human form as part of our existence to- I don't know- why DO we take human form? I pray that I am learning so that I do not have to do it again.


What is monotheism???  Is it belief that there is only one god, only one creator, or simply the worship of only one god?

I tend to go with the idea that Egyptian chronology is WAY off and that the Trojan War was a much more recent battle than normally treated moving Egyptian dates up by at least several hundred years from the traditional chronology.

Velikofsky is meant only to indicate that the Egyptology issue may not be easily resolved.
I am pleased that you are familiar with him and give some respect.

My argument would be that since we were created by One God to worship Him then we must have been monotheistic from the beginning and fallen away from that in order for Atan worship to be a blueprint for monotheism.

I can research the history of worship a bit and see what I find in art and history to indicate that there was monotheism before the Atan.

Would perhaps you argue (no offense intended to the Creator) that monotheism is not true belief since the Creator said distinctly "Let US create man in OUR image"?

Would you argue, Human or anyone else, that perhaps the Angry God of the Old Testament was somehow a usurper of the power of the plural creators? Or maybe He is just the spokesman or the central authority?

How is this working?


See, this is why I enjoy this board so very much.

Already today I am learning to admit some things I have been afraid to believe out loud, in spite of scripture screaming their truths.

But as long as we are speaking academically and practically, I need dates that you are using for Akhnatan in order to even begin to discuss Atan worship as a prototype for monotheism...don't I?

Or perhaps I need to find some counter-examples.

When do you think the Hebrews began practicing monotheism relative to Akhnatan?

Wasn't Imhotep/Joseph a monotheist?
Didn't he pre-date Akhnatan by several hundred years?




Elijah I- you read Hebrew?

Perhaps you could help with the Genesis account?
Was the Creator plural?   



This is an aside I guess- got excited and side-tracked myself. Will try to get back to topic next post:

Art historically there is good evidence, in my opinion, of bull worship occurring well before sun worship- but that isn't the issue here.

What I have always found very interesting about cave painting- Lascaux is the cave with which I am most familiar- is the absolute naturalism of the animals, yet the lone human is but a stiff stick figure.

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/arcnat/lascaux/en/

"The shaft of the dead man" is where the stick figure is shown.

Was it that there was only one person and hence no model?

Or was it that even then there was a distinct discomfort with rendering of the human form? (Expressly forbidden the way I read the scriptures- yet I paint, draw, watch TV, and own and use a camera- God forgive)

Although it is very clear at this point that I take no stand on who God really is, other then the Creator who has helped me constantly and very personally, and that I believe the bible,

let me say as always,
God bless.

This is very enlightening.

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I ELIJAH I

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2008, 01:54:25 AM »

Yes, But HIM Selassie I also speaks as We so I don't read too far into it.
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natty threads

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2008, 04:12:25 AM »

DOH!!!!!!!

Seen.

God bless.

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Nepsis

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2008, 12:29:21 AM »

Glory to Our Father!
Children rise up!

Thanks everyone for a nice thread.  I would like to add information from the oral tradition of the ascetics living on Tana Qirqos.  At the time of the Theotokos (Mary) and Christ's flight to Egypt, the true Ark would have been located at Tana Qirqos, the island in Lake Tana, Ethiopia.  The oral tradition of the monks there is that Mary brought Christ there during the time of His childhood.  Perhaps their visit there was connected to the fulfillment of the law, similar to his presentation in the Temple of Jerusalem.  Moreso, it may be the simultaneous fulfillment of the eternal uncreated law, begotten by God by which the world was created.  Modern science tracing the origins of human species to the same region seems to support this.  "As sons of Cushim are ye not to Me?" Amos 9:7.  The Ark moving to that location, the Christ visiting in his childhood or infancy, speaks to the universality of deification through the incarnate wisdom of God.  The region of the world we call Ethiopia, being the source of our unified human gene pool, represents universal humanity, so it is fitting that the Ark, the Theotokos (who is the typological fulfillment of the Ark in orthodox tradition), and the Christ (the ultimate fulfillment of Holy of Holies - God's presence with us) rested there for a time. 

There is much that indicates the Toldoth Yeshu is a conflation of multiple people along with earlier rabbinical jewish writings.  Yeshu was a very common name, just as travel between Palestine and Egypt was. 

Polemical writings against Christians might stem from anger over Jewish Christian lack of support for the Bar Kokhba revolt against Rome.  In the early decades after Christ, Jewish Christians were attending synagogues and converting gentile God-fearers to Christianity.  Many gentiles believed in the One God and attended synagogue but avoided complete conversion, possibly to avoid adult circumcision.  Christianity was an alternative path.  This might have been perceived by non-christian Rabbis as "stealing God's name".  Of course relations between them soured overall despite centuries of isolated friendly contact between christian and rabbinical jews.

Coptic Christians, who were direct disciples of the Apostles recognized the Theotokos and Christ as the realization of divine-humanity (who they had seen with their own eyes).  Their preexisting pagan cults were full of wisdom, yet were elevated and realized in a more immediate way in the person of Christ.  Henceforth, to them, their own rites were prefigurements, even if they were obsoleted/updated (depending on perspective).  Yet when they used the same imagery to proclaim Christ and the Theotokos, to the Jews it would look as if there is a connection between Christianity and "magical arts of Egypt". 

To this day, orthodox are accused of practicing pagan magic.  Mostly by fundamentalist western christians and atheists.  As as already stated, Christ, who is Wisdom, schooled the wise, not the other way around.   

I am interested in learning more about Velikovsky.  I have only been exposed to isolated quotes here and there.  Do you have any recommended reading?  I thought he was largely discredited.  Where can I find out more about recent confirmation of his theories?

Thanks for sharing knowledge
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 12:32:50 AM by Nepsis »
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NyaInIJahLove

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2008, 05:39:58 AM »

Quote
Or was it that even then there was a distinct discomfort with rendering of the human form? (Expressly forbidden the way I read the scriptures-
I am interested Sistah, where this is mentioned in Scripture?
I am now, heavily into Ible study, but is a new thing for I, so pardon I ignorance.....
as for this topic, totally enlightening info being explored here, for I, I would like to contribute further, yet still can not for awaiting further knowledge and contributions.....
looking forward to more truth to come to Light....
Yes, ones came OUT of Egypt for Jahs reasons
and Christ IS the Word and first made
So He as Firstborn Son made the heavens and Earth With His Father
"Men made in OUR image"
Elohim also represents the plural of the Godhead, as the Aeons who do the Will of The Almighty, Flawless Father, Alpha and Omega, One Who Always Was and ALways Will Be....
The One Who Breaths Life into Being, manifestations of His Will, and then back into His Being, Spirit Who is not Separate from HIM
So He is One and yet Many; Who know themselves as One
Blessings
Nyah I JahLove   
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Human

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2008, 06:23:39 PM »

"Would the natural path be somewhat related to the way Jesus had to take human form?"

Yes as far as the spirit needing to experience matter in order to move on to higher heights.

 "Let US create man in OUR image"?  This was said by the Elohim (plural) i believe it was the esoteric way of saying the elements, these elements created man in there image. In other words we were a product of several different elements fashioned together.. Water,wind,fire,earth,air,etc, etc. The bible stories of creation to me are in symbolic form and must be read esoterically. Why do we get goosebumps and are sweat is salt? elements we see every were on this planet.

"Would you argue, Human or anyone else, that perhaps the Angry God of the Old Testament was somehow a usurper of the power of the plural creators? Or maybe He is just the spokesman or the central authority?"  To me yes. Not a userper per say, but, to me personally not the ONE true absolute. I believe there was no name for the one absolute and that the name jahova was a kabalistic way of understanding. To me the absolute is just that, absolute, no-thing, no form, no end or beginning, just is, I am that I am. I believe jahova is simply anthropromorphic deity.

I am interested in learning more about Velikovsky.  I have only been exposed to isolated quotes here and there.  Do you have any recommended reading?  I thought he was largely discredited.  Where can I find out more about recent confirmation of his theories?   Read his book "Age in Chaos" very interesting to say the least.
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natty threads

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Re: The Toldoth Yeshu- early biased stories of Yeshua
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2008, 11:15:22 PM »

Oh grr!

I mishandled my mouse and lost my post-

So briefly- then I must go love and read-

Abraham predates Ahnaten and Moses by over 500 years and was a monotheist and there was a continuous tradition from Abraham, so it must be he that established Hebraic monotheism.

Nya- in the Mosaic laws it says to make no likeness of any living thing under the sun. I will find scripture and verse.

Nepsis- I understand people think Velikovsky is a crackpot. I have only read what is posted on that web-site I linked- I have only examined his criticism of Egyptian dating and his articles related to ancient history, particularly regarding his belief that there were no dark ages in Greece. I find his reasoning to be understandable and plausible.

Albert Einstein corresponded respectfully with him regarding other matters.
Those correspondences are also posted on that web-site.

I am so enjoying this forum and the open, loving reasoning that occurs here.

God bless.
Posted on: February 10, 2008, 10:55:35 pm
Nya- Exodus 20:4, which is the second commandment, commonly shortened to "no graven images."

It is somewhere else too, I am thinking.

Soon come. ;)

God bless.
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