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Author Topic: Adam and Eve the firsT?  (Read 8924 times)

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RubADubDub

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Adam and Eve the firsT?
« on: April 01, 2008, 04:00:19 AM »

Hello again. If you read my post, "OT vs NT" you would know I have been tryin to understand the Bible more lately. Another topic of question in my mind is Adam and Eve being the first? or simply individuals whom knew God and payed dues to him in a time of ignorant man. the question is because in Gen 1:26-31 it talks of God creating man and telling them to be fruitful and multiply, and later he then talks of Adam and his creation saying "he breathed life into him" and that "man became a living being". Is this speaking of man's transformation from human to "living being", or is this talking of the first creation of man? Hope you understand my question...and thanks for the replies in advance!
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Human

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2008, 03:23:08 PM »

Adam and Eve means humanity as a whole not individual single persons. Genesis also is not about 7 days as we know 7 days to be, these are long, long cycles of time and during these long cycles formations take place and also changes, bear in mind this.

Genesis and and the whole Universal Tradition speaks of two so-called Creations : Formation of the physical and the Divine Man. The two streams meet at a certain point of Kosmic unfoldment to produce the complex being called Man--the riddle of the ages--who is, therefore, a correlation of physical and chemical forces, on the one hand,  and psychical and spiritual powers, on the other--"A beam of Light immaculate within and a form clay material upon the lower surface. This Beam is thy life-guide and the true Self, Watcher and the Silent Thinker, the victim of thy lower self."

Words of HPB  "One thing, at least, has been shown in the Hebrew text, viz. : that there was once a race of purely physical creatures, another purely spiritual. The evolution and 'transformation of species' required to fill the gap between the two has been left to the abler anthropologists. We can only repeat the philosophy of men of old, which says that the union of these two races produced a third--the Adamite race. Sharing the natures of both these parents, it is equally adapted to an existence in the material and the spiritual worlds. Allied to the physical half of man's nature is reason which enables him to maintain his supremacy over the lower animals, and to subjugate nature to his uses. Allied to his spiritual part is his conscience, which will serve as his unerring guide through the besetments of the senses ; for conscience is that instantaneous perception between right and wrong, which can only be exercised by the spirit, which, being a portion of the Divine Wisdom and Purity, is absolutely pure and wise. Its promptings are independent of reason, and it can only manifest itself clearly, when unhampered by the baser attractions of our dual nature."
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1080man

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2008, 05:18:14 AM »

Adam and Eve means humanity as a whole not individual single persons. Genesis also is not about 7 days as we know 7 days to be, these are long, long cycles of time and during these long cycles formations take place and also changes, bear in mind this.

Genesis and and the whole Universal Tradition speaks of two so-called Creations : Formation of the physical and the Divine Man. The two streams meet at a certain point of Kosmic unfoldment to produce the complex being called Man--the riddle of the ages--who is, therefore, a correlation of physical and chemical forces, on the one hand,  and psychical and spiritual powers, on the other--"A beam of Light immaculate within and a form clay material upon the lower surface. This Beam is thy life-guide and the true Self, Watcher and the Silent Thinker, the victim of thy lower self."

Words of HPB  "One thing, at least, has been shown in the Hebrew text, viz. : that there was once a race of purely physical creatures, another purely spiritual. The evolution and 'transformation of species' required to fill the gap between the two has been left to the abler anthropologists. We can only repeat the philosophy of men of old, which says that the union of these two races produced a third--the Adamite race. Sharing the natures of both these parents, it is equally adapted to an existence in the material and the spiritual worlds. Allied to the physical half of man's nature is reason which enables him to maintain his supremacy over the lower animals, and to subjugate nature to his uses. Allied to his spiritual part is his conscience, which will serve as his unerring guide through the besetments of the senses ; for conscience is that instantaneous perception between right and wrong, which can only be exercised by the spirit, which, being a portion of the Divine Wisdom and Purity, is absolutely pure and wise. Its promptings are independent of reason, and it can only manifest itself clearly, when unhampered by the baser attractions of our dual nature."


when ever the I writes stuff it seems i need to print it off and disect it more and more, InI couldnt exactly grasp the I was talking about in all that but it will come to I.
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Human

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 11:06:08 AM »

Hello 1080, what you said is good, im usually the same way and i like to read information that makes me really think. What the bible says in Genesis and what RubaDub asked was why does it speak of God creating man twice in a sense. First time be fruitful and multiply, then a short time later he breathed Life into man named Adam and he became a living being, this is also when Eve came about. First thing to remember about Genesis is that it is an allegory about the formation of the planet/s and all life and especially humanity and it's gift of Mind. This is not about two people hanging out in a garden eating whatever they want except an apple and talking to a snake. It is a deep and complex allegory, but i will try to explain it better. Adam is a collective for all of Humanity and Eve is representation of the female portion, the first part of genesis talking about man is the physical creation (Genesis 1:26) created by the Elohim or Gods which only means the elementals or creative spirits, these elementals have no MIND, those Elohim who provided the astral-physical form for humanity, ie the Adam of Dust were not jealous Gods, they simply were unable to provide humanity what they did not have themselves, ie awakened MANAS/MIND - hence the allegory when referring to this creative group that 'man should not become "as one of us".'. Humanity was just a shell, created by the elements but not having the important factor which seperates itself from the animal which is it's divine mind, the one key which man uses to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, etc, etc. Later in the evolution after the human form was developed spirits or Minds, the immortal aspect of ourselves incarnated (breathed life into) into these forms/bodies and they became "Living Beings".

Stanzas of Dzyan say this: THE BREATH (human Monad) NEEDED A FORM; THE FATHERS GAVE IT. THE BREATH NEEDED A GROSS BODY; THE EARTH MOULDED IT. THE BREATH NEEDED THE SPIRIT OF LIFE; THE SOLAR LHAS BREATHED IT INTO ITS FORM. THE BREATH NEEDED A MIRROR OF ITS BODY (astral shadow); "WE GAVE IT OUR OWN," SAID THE DHYANIS. THE BREATH NEEDED A VEHICLE OF DESIRES (Kama Rupa); "IT HAS IT," SAID THE DRAINER OF WATERS (Suchi, the fire of passion and animal instinct). THE BREATH NEEDS A MIND TO EMBRACE THE UNIVERSE; "WE CANNOT GIVE THAT," SAID THE FATHERS. "I NEVER HAD IT," SAID THE SPIRIT OF THE EARTH. "THE FORM WOULD BE CONSUMED WERE I TO GIVE IT MINE," SAID THE GREAT (solar) FIRE . . . .MAN REMAINED AN EMPTY, SENSELESS BHUTA . . . . THUS HAVE THE BONELESS GIVEN LIFE TO THOSE WHO BECAME (later) MEN WITH BONES IN THE THIRD

As we see in the above the "Fathers" (Elohim, Pitar or Pitris) who gave the form (the Adam of Dust) are unable to give to the human Monad (the true spiritual entity) "a mind to embrace the Universe" because they never had it to give or to awaken in another. Thus they are referred to in the allegory as saying that 'man should not become as one of us' ie MIND-LESS. The reference, if there was one in the original teachings, to them being jealous gods was probably a 'blind' to cover up the real meaning.

We see a similar story of the Adam of Dust (ie the physical form only) and the later awakening of Mind in 'man' in the myth Prometheus and Epimetheus, the two TITAN brothers charged by the Gods with the job of creating man. First they make the physical form of 'man', moulding his form like clay out of earth and water but he is no better than an animal, so Prometheus brings 'fire' down from Heaven, the abode of the Gods, in order to raise man above all the creatures. In response Zeus - the father of all the Gods - sends Pandora, the first woman, as gift to Epimetheus. Zeus sends her with a jar which she is instructed not to open. The jar contains all the ills of the world which 'man' is given to know as a result of the theft of FIRE (Mind/Knowledge of good and evil) from Heaven. Pandora's curiosity causes her to open the lid of the jar and all the ills of the world fly out to affect humankind. However, there is one thing which does not escape and which lay at the bottom of the jar - that thing was HOPE.


This allegory is repeated everywere in every culture, it is about collective humanity, me, you and all of us and our incredible journey from pure spirit to our incarnation into these forms and eventually our return back to pure spirit. It has and i repeat has nothing whatsoever to do with SIN or the first SIN of mankind, this is a lie used for centuries to control people and never ever taught to the people in the past, this is a church lie used to create fear in people. When you understand this allegory many things become clear to you. I hope this has helped you, take care.

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natty threads

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2008, 06:06:45 AM »

Or it could be that two traditions of the same event (The physical creation of the first two people) were merged at some point before Moses wrote Genesis.

Some of us read the bible literally as well as allegorically.

There is an actual tradition of how double-listed events should be read in formulaic and repetitive narrative.

I don't know the tradition in this instance, and without massive quoting and getting VERY tedious could not explain what I have learned about others.

The bible, the better I understand it the less allegorical it becomes.

It is incredibly succinct and nothing- NOTHING- is repeated without reason.
What is the reason? I don't know. But it was repeated and there's a reason.

Bless up!

Human, what do you mean by evolution?
I am finding no two people use that word in the same way.
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Human

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2008, 03:13:35 PM »

Human, what do you mean by evolution?

Cycles of time in which things grow and eventually decline due to the surrounding elements. Birth, adolescents,adult,old age, death then repeat.

"Or it could be that two traditions of the same event (The physical creation of the first two people) were merged at some point before Moses wrote Genesis."
Could you explain this further please. Keep in mind that the same story in Genesis was written long before the biblical one by other cultures, the one supposedly written by Moses is not the original. If Moses did write it he certainly received it from the Egyptians.
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2008, 04:05:38 PM »

Let me break this down so ones get an idea what this one is promoting. Basically he is saying that JAH has no mind. And that Man and 'his mind' is higher than JAH. He is confusing 'mind' with self-awareness. G-d has no 'self-awareness' which is a curse, the iriginal sin, Because He is all, He has no 'self' in relation to another. For We know that JAH is ONE and complete before creation itself,G-d can be fully within and fully beyond creation, this will never be fathomed but the vain will boast. This may be an overstanding so fundamental to 'g-d' that it goes without saying. Life is a gift to Man. Man is the pinnacle of Iniversal creation, but G-d does not 'need' man. G-d could destroy all of creation this very moment and be 'fine' in him 'mind'.  Of course he needs to dismiss the notion that JAH is a jealous creator and ruler of Men, This teachment is one of the more advanced forms of Paganism I've come across. How attractive it must be to some when given an opportunity to elevate themselves and their mind above their very creator. Yet how difficult it will been when they have to face the allmighty.
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Human

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2008, 04:31:55 PM »

I will lets ones make up there own mind on what i posted, those who aren't indoctrinated by dogma will understand, those who  live by blind faith in the unsound reason of the dead letter will not.

Your no teacher or Elder so let ones make up there own minds, they are perfectly capable.  It is very clear how you take something and change it around and add things that were not said to it to fit your agenda, most things you said had nothing to do with what i said "Basically he is saying that JAH has no mind. And that Man and 'his mind' is higher than JAH" "G-d has no 'self-awareness' which is a curse, the iriginal sin, Because He is all" "but G-d does not 'need' man. G-d could destroy all of creation this very moment and be 'fine' in him 'mind' "dismiss the notion that JAH is a jealous creator and ruler of Men" "when given an opportunity to elevate themselves and their mind above their very creator".
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2008, 05:08:40 PM »

What I speak is not based on dogma or dead letter scripture but the fundamental overstanding and reverence gathered from life that WE GIVE to g-d and YOU DON"T. We hold G-d above everything. You see g-d as a principle to "explain", Not the Majestic unfathomable creator of the Iniverse HE IS. This is because you do not know g-d. ****You do not know that Haile Selassie Created You.***** Your teaching try to break down g-d into a bunch of different parts. BUN THAT!  You dont know say I and I g-d is ONE and complete before creation, THE ALMIGHTY JAH RASTAFARI!!!! Who is the creator. Who has no beginning. Who is one. Who is indivisible. Man is just a creation of G-d. But you wan chat about monads and elemental spirits cause your a pagan, which is why I'm not your teacher or your elder.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 05:15:09 PM by ELIJAH I »
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Human

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 06:15:40 PM »

No Selassie did not create me, he gave life to his own children that's all. You say "unfathomable" yet you have a name for for that, even a gender, that is unsound reasoning if i have ever heard it. Im not breaking the "Unfathomable" down into parts you are and that is what i have shown on here always because the stories/allegories/mysteries all show that the ONE is unthinkable, unfathomable, unknowable,un-nameable coming from human preceptions. The ancients knew this and that is why they wrote the stories to express the parts of the whole but never the whole and along comes ones like you who think the stories the whole time are talking about the ONE unfathomable as you even put it. AGAIN i will give you the last word because it eats you up and you need it, so go ahead say what you wish, I know how others on here think of my writings and what i am saying, they may not agree which is wonderful, unlike you im not looking for agreement only open sound mind to reason on such items like adults that they are. I cant tell you how many times i have been P.M.ed on here and spoke to many about great subjects and great reasonings without your annoying childish "Im so Ras it hurts" type attitude. You have a few fans on here so best you rally them so you feel better.
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2008, 08:01:07 PM »

Yes, and let his children see why someone like you would come here day after day to try and move people into your frustration. Because you do not know g-d, and misery loves company. I and I know that g-d is HIM Haile Selassie I, Who created the heavens and the earth and even likkle duppies like you.  And this is knowledge that I would trade for all the PM's in creation.
'lol'
Like I said what I speak does not come from any book other than the book of life, Where I and I name is written. The only one eaten up is you though because while you literize the unfathomable, I and I remain He Who you give no words
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Human

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2008, 09:40:33 PM »

LOL.
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2008, 10:25:38 AM »

As I said, Speechless.  I'd expect nothing less that pagans would come insert themselves into the edge of the trod and preach falsehood out of frustration, What bothers me is that its tolerated.
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Human

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2008, 02:10:07 PM »

Lets here your version of the original post "so ras it hurts" elijah, you never seem to be able or willing to answer someones post, you wait till you hear something you dont like then only argue and call names to that person, never answering the post. I gave a sound reason and explanation, you did nothing but jump in and call it all pagan. Answer the original posts question if you can with something with SOUND REASON not church bullshit or your very own idea as to what happened.
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I ELIJAH I

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Re: Adam and Eve the firsT?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2008, 05:54:16 PM »

I'll give an opinion, But first let me mention that your dualistic and illogical presupposition of 'sound reason" vs 'church bullshit' is built on your own insecurities, and you become really exposed when cautioning that I don't contribute 'my very own idea's as to ""what happened""(truthfully what 'is happening') as supposedly contrasted with 'sound reason' because it illustrates that a person such as yourself relies on external validation and therefore will never know the truth on these matters. And that is my point, I am showing Rastafari view on this because I am showing that it is precisely our very own idea's that form the soundest reason. I and I's opinion is the Highest Ithority and Final Voice as opposed to yours though you would deny it, that is based on dead letters because your ignorance as to the reverence necessarily given to His Imperial Majesty reveals your fallen state of dis-incarnation. Do not forget that Rastafari wrote the bible.   
G-d created man from dust as a divine act, and breathed in his nose to impart his divine nature. Both occasions happened through the benevolent ordinance of a complete and eternal g-d. Who has both name and is spoken of with gender yet remains unfathomable.  I and I must overstand that in the mind of g-d who created man, that You?Man? claims he doesn't have, All the future is known. When g-d gave man a semi-divine nature('his image'-defined as likeness counterpart but not the actual fullness) he knew he would eventually have to send Christ, to redeem them. Adam and Eve are the first men because in this context they are the first to meet the classification 'man' but they were yet complete which is why Christ is called the 'new adam' even though he is more Iriginal. Christ is the true Adam and first 'man'. It is overstood that there were biped humanoids living prior- But not of this particular divine physical formation, and with this particular spiritual endowment. Like I said none of this can be seen linearly but in the context of the 'eternal present'. Which spiritually speaking a 'man' is known not by evolutionary factors but by his conscientious and moral advancement and In this sense there are likely much fewer 'men' than is thought.
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